Do you believe in free will?

[Madame Catfish]

Why or why not?

 

[Peace]

Absolutely! We all make choices every day that exhibit free will. It is also illogical that God, a creator, would create beings that could not exercise free will and then give them a consequence based justice system.

 

[Slithytoves]

You might want to define who you mean by "free will". There's more than one take on that.

I'm a soft determinist; I don't believe our will is completely free. I propose that the choices we make are ultimately molded by a combination of hereditary, psychological and environmental factors, such that options that are on the table for some aren't even a consideration for others. We can call our choices free in that we have a certain amount of control over what we ultimately decide to do, but there are always underlying factors which perpetually influence and constrain us.

 

[Randomperson]

Humans are all born with free will, but most of them never use it. It seems to be tied to intelligence, since humanity is supposed to be an intelligent species, but the ones who do not use their free will, often do stupid things.

 

[Suzanne]

Oh without a doubt, do I believe in Free Will. Well I would, since I am a christian!

 

[Slithytoves]

Humans are all born with free will, but most of them never use it. It seems to be tied to intelligence, since humanity is supposed to be an intelligent species, but the ones who do not use their free will, often do stupid things.

Was this just a cynically dismissive answer, or do you have a thoughtful rationale behind it? If you do, it would be interesting to read.

Oh without a doubt, do I believe in Free Will. Well I would, since I am a christian!

But not all Christians believe in free will. Many believe in predestination, or that humans can only act righteously and/or be saved by embrace of Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit, etc.

I know that Jehovah's Witnesses don't subscribe to the former. From all I've read, though, they do believe that salvation can only be achieved by righteous deeds done through faith. Doesn't that imply an essential hindrance to truly free will, if we have no other option but to choose faith, never mind to a particular God, as a prerequisite to salvation? That's always seemed paradoxical to me. It's like saying, "You can choose to stay inside or go outside today, but if you stay in you can never leave your house again." I've worked with clergy from various Christian denominations on committees many times, and have yet to hear a very good answer to this. Fear of punishment or deprivation is a major constraint to free will.

 

[Madame Catfish]

Was this just a cynically dismissive answer, or do you have a thoughtful rationale behind it? If you do, it would be interesting to read.




But not all Christians believe in free will. Many believe in predestination, or that humans can only act righteously and/or be saved by embrace of Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit, etc.

I know that Jehovah's Witnesses don't subscribe to the former. From all I've read, though, they do believe that salvation can only be achieved by righteous deeds done through faith. Doesn't that imply an essential hindrance to truly free will, if we have no other option but to choose faith, never mind to a particular God, as a prerequisite to salvation? That's always seemed paradoxical to me. It's like saying, "You can choose to stay inside or go outside today, but if you stay in you can never leave your house again." I've worked with clergy from various Christian denominations on committees many times, and have yet to hear a very good answer to this. Fear of punishment or deprivation is a major constraint to free will.

On an unrelated note, I love your username. It made me want to gyre and gimble in the wabe.

 

[Judge]

Metaphysically I believe the ultimate manifestation of free will is to have the choice of reincarnation. To be willing to subject your soul to the rigors of a mortal life under very different- and trying circumstances.

As for what happens to us during such a mortal existence remains a combination of free will and predetermined factors given that we "sculpt" our mortal lives on another plane of existence. To learn some kind of valuable lesson from those experiences that ultimately enhances our eternal soul.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

But not all Christians believe in free will. Many believe in predestination, or that humans can only act righteously and/or be saved by embrace of Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit, etc.

...Doesn't that imply an essential hindrance to truly free will, if we have no other option but to choose faith, never mind to a particular God, as a prerequisite to salvation? That's always seemed paradoxical to me. It's like saying, "You can choose to stay inside or go outside today, but if you stay in you can never leave your house again." I've worked with clergy from various Christian denominations on committees many times, and have yet to hear a very good answer to this. Fear of punishment or deprivation is a major constraint to free will.

Thoughtful.

I'm surprised none of the aforementioned clergy mentioned that faith is a gift of the Spirit, according to Paul in the Christian model. Your free will is measured by the gifts that you have; these are the things that you can choose to exercise, or not. Ergo, I can't choose to have faith. (And in truth, "faith" is not one of the gifts that shows up conspicuously in my spiritual gifts inventory.) I also can't choose not to have discernment. I see whether I want to or not, within the scope of that gift. However, I do choose how to respond to someone strong in faith, and I also choose what to do about what I see.

That works at the individual level. I'm not sure it scales to the community level.

 

[Etzelaire]

I am not wise enought to judge, but I would say we all make choices and some are made for us.

 

[Tom]

Not exactly. Everything costs something.

 

[wyverary]

I guess there's two approaches you can take to this question:

1) The religious one. Obviously, every different religion (and, indeed, every varying sect of one particular religion) has a very different view on this question. If you take the end result, Calvinism would suggest that it doesn't even matter; you are either pre-destined for Grace, or Grace can be brought upon you (okay, I have to confess my lack of theological knowledge here)

2) The scientific approach. Scientists, and philosophers of science, seem to disagree vehemently on this subject. I happen to believe we live in a deterministic universe...but I have no idea just how much that determinism spreads into something so small and insignificant as a human individual. Furthermore, pertaining to both individuals and pure physics, how big a role might quantum mechanics play? I realize that the probabilities of quantum mechanics always even themselves out on the macroscopic scale, but still...I can't help but think of Boltzmann Brains, or the like. Is every decision we make pre-determined by our situation and our physiology, or is there, in fact, a level of decision-making that are brains truly are capable of, independent of Fate? And how much might the monism/dualism dichotomy play into it?

This question could keep me up all night, heh.

 

[Slithytoves]

I'm surprised none of the aforementioned clergy mentioned that faith is a gift of the Spirit, according to Paul in the Christian model.

They did mention it. The way it was explained to me, by an Episcopal priest and a Methodist minister on one occasion and a pair of Presbyterian ministers on another, was that there are different kinds of faith. I was told that "saving faith" is voluntarily attainable through hearing and belief of the Word of God, as described in Romans and Ephesians, while Faith-as-gift-of-Spirit was described to me as "special faith"; a supernatural manifestation that isn't conferred on everyone and cannot be obtained by will. I think the priest said that's described somewhere in Corinthians. I have never had the conversation with a Baptist minister, though Baptist subsets constitute the dominant majority of houses of worship in my area. Baptists here don't participate in interfaith services. No comment.

Since I know that most Christian denominations are big on free will, I naturally asked in both discussions how a person's will can be truly free if they are ever-concerned for the fate of their soul. That's the part nobody could answer to my satisfaction, since we had in fact established that saving faith is considered a choice. To me, any compelling influence over free agency axiomatically diminishes it. The bigger the influence, the bigger the constraint. That goes for mundane influences as well, but the question gets interesting with religion because bucking supernatural leverage has special consequences.

 

[Judge]

That goes for mundane influences as well, but the question gets interesting with religion because bucking supernatural leverage has special consequences.

Indeed, it certainly does get interesting.

 

[Slithytoves]

Scientists, and philosophers of science, seem to disagree vehemently on this subject. I happen to believe we live in a deterministic universe...but I have no idea just how much that determinism spreads into something so small and insignificant as a human individual. Furthermore, pertaining to both individuals and pure physics, how big a role might quantum mechanics play? I realize that the probabilities of quantum mechanics always even themselves out on the macroscopic scale, but still...I can't help but think of Boltzmann Brains, or the like. Is every decision we make pre-determined by our situation and our physiology, or is there, in fact, a level of decision-making that are brains truly are capable of, independent of Fate? And how much might the monism/dualism dichotomy play into it?

This question could keep me up all night, heh.

Me, too. Those are all great questions. I can ask them right along with you, but I wouldn't attempt to answer them unless we had all night to sit around a fire with a bottle of wine and speculate together. It's posts like yours that make me wish we could all do just that, sometimes.

We do have at least some small degree of totally independent agency. Picking a flavor of ice cream doesn't generally entail any special influences except for the preferences of our taste buds and possibly an allergy, but even still, there's usually at least a few wide-open options. I do hope we're a bit freer than that. I'd hate to think that the most power I have in the universe is a choice between mocha almond fudge and raspberry ripple. Though I gotta tell ya, some days that's about the biggest choice I can handle.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

They did mention it...I was told that "saving faith" is voluntarily attainable through hearing and belief of the Word of God, as described in Romans and Ephesians, while Faith-as-gift-of-Spirit was described to me as "special faith"; a supernatural manifestation that isn't conferred on everyone and cannot be obtained by will...I naturally asked in both discussions how a person's will can be truly free if they are ever-concerned for the fate of their soul. That's the part nobody could answer to my satisfaction, since we had in fact established that saving faith is considered a choice. To me, any compelling influence over free agency axiomatically diminishes it. The bigger the influence, the bigger the constraint. That goes for mundane influences as well, but the question gets interesting with religion because bucking supernatural leverage has special consequences.

I can't help but giggle. I never got the speech about "two" kinds of faith, although, yes, I see it now. Sounds almost Jesuitical, if that's still an adjective. The priest I discussed it with remarked only that neither God nor Satan get into the heart unless invited, thereby making it a free will matter about what I would subjugate myself to--as if, in this matter only, my own will would prevail, an interesting proposition if I'm talking to the Creator of the Universe and a fallen angel who was first and best, and once the Morning Star, and still leads legions.

Apparently I never turn into a robot for either side, aspishness notwithstanding! Nice to know that everything is my fault, my own grievous fault...

The God I still believe in doesn't require "protection money," but I notice He/She/It doesn't mind taking advantage of what HSI made possible...genetically. I find myself relatively unconcerned about my soul, and pitilessly concerned about goodness in action, and frequently pissed off in consequence.

I've heard it said that spirits wish for the ability to move the physical, and desire possession for that reason. So my value, apparently, is that I have a body. Not that I have a soul.

Can confirm the bit about the consequences of bucking supernatural leverage, however.

Probably way off topic, but thank you for opening the door. Peace upon all. I'm going to behave myself now.

P.S. I maintain God is a physicist, also, too.

 

[StephF]

I have to believe in free will as the alternative of predestination leads to a paradox.

If my choices are not mine and I'm making them because I always was going to doesn't make sense. It
certainly makes a mockery of the justice system.

I could go out and murder someone and then say "I'm not culpable as I didn't choose to kill them, it was always going to happen". Predestination is just an excuse for people's bad choices although I do agree with Slithytoves that environmental / social factors impact as well.

 

[Harrison]

Whilst I believe we are creatures of free will I also believe that our ability to freely apply our will has been usurped. This has not been done by some supreme being but by others just like ourselves. Whether the excuse is god, country or the enemy at the door, we, as a population of some 7 billion souls, have chosen to be controlled by a very small number of humans who do not have our best interests at heart.

People believe they have free will, it is an illusion that comes from accepting the boundaries laid down upon us by our 'masters'. Try operating outside of those imposed restrictions and see how much free will you have.

 

[StephF]

Perfectly said Harrison. You have it in a nutshell.

 

[Slithytoves]

I have to believe in free will as the alternative of predestination leads to a paradox.

If my choices are not mine and I'm making them because I always was going to doesn't make sense. It
certainly makes a mockery of the justice system.

It certainly does, and one that's only gotten more prickly as we've moved further away from traditional societies. The response from Western religion seems to be continual redefinition of what constitutes free will, often by reevaluating the parameters of Providence. I'm not sure how that jives with God....

One interesting compatibilist argument is that free will implies only freedom of mental choice, not freedom of implementation. Say what?

People believe they have free will, it is an illusion that comes from accepting the boundaries laid down upon us by our 'masters'. Try operating outside of those imposed restrictions and see how much free will you have.

I suddenly see the children's film "Free Willy" as being a subversive dog whistle. It certainly wouldn't be the first time children's media has served that purpose.

The argument you make is one many Americans use to assert that our country is freer than anyone else's. I saw it coming up frequently on a popular hotbed of social debate, City Data Forum, when the Affordable Care Act was moving through our Congress. The argument was that by adopting anything like a universal healthcare system, Americans were going to be "less free, like England". Of course I immediate asked my English friends if they feel they're less free than Americans. What I got in response was a very Harrison-like treatise on illusions.

So what you're saying is the only "freedoms" we have are actually liberties; freedoms granted by an external control. It's a shame I'm no longer on CDF. American Libertarians would go nuts over that one. I, however, find it a satisfying answer to the question I posed to clergy: The only freedom God gives us is in fact God-given, and therefore really only liberty. There is no free will under a religious model because there is no freedom. The deck is totally stacked.