Differentiating between mental illness and neurodevelopmental conditions?

[the_tortoise]

Or do you differentiate between them at all?

Just curious.

I see them as different, but also related by virtue of both being neurological conditions....and sometimes the lines between them get blurry (like when neurodevelopmental conditions involve "thought disorder"), so it's not necessarily a black and white sort of distinction for me -- not always, at least.

It depends on how "mental illness" is being defined, whether or not I can blur the categories.....I think the definition that makes the most sense is that mental illness is a pathological/detrimental/unwanted departure from normal neurological functioning, relative to the individual. (In which case neurodevelopmental conditions are clearly different from mental illness -- they are just a person's baseline/normal neurological state/functionig -- good, bad or otherwise.) But not everyone defines it that way, as far as I know.

 

[FreeDiver]

Today they are definitely different. But about 20 plus years ago. They would've been the same and called Mental illness. At least that what they did when I was a kid.

 

[Progster]

Yes, they are different, because neurodevelopmental disorders start in early childhood or are present since birth, and affect the way the brain is wired and how it functions. They are about differences in the way the brain develops in the womb and from birth. Mental disorders also affect how the brain functions and how a person thinks, but they usually start later in life - one is not born depressed, for example, but autism is present at birth (I think).

 

[Thinx]

The_tortoise said neuro developmental conditions and I like that as I feel the word disorders is tricky. Is it a disorder or is it a difference? I think when getting assistance may depend on it being seen as a disorder it's an unfortunate catch22 situation. But I believe that were we to properly understand that the world is neurodiverse and people's needs therefore differ, we may be able to change the overwhelming cultural assumptions about socialising and communication and people who don't fit the NT norms would not get ill so much and would be more accommodated as a type of person. Think we are maybe just starting to get nearer that idea...

 

[WereBear]

My own experience with what I didn't know was a Perfect Storm of:

• hormone dysfunction; I lost the ability to make all kinds of hormones and my body tried to use cortisol to make up for everything else
• brain injury; I had overworked my brain to the functional equivalent of a TBI - confusion, long term memory problems, short term memory problems, lack of executive function, stress handling shot to pieces etc
• auto immune issues from cortisol resistance
• depression, anxiety, and a hair trigger on my annoyance tolerance

Convinced me that there are very often physical problems that have mental symptoms.

 

[Mr Allen]

There IS a difference IMO, contrary to popular belief, Autistic people in general are NOT "ill" we're just Neurodiverse.

 

[Gritches]

They're different, but also realize the difference between a "quirk" and a mental illness is whether or not that idiosyncrasy causes substantial disruption to a person's daily life. That's when labels need to start being applied so you can know what to do about those labels.

I'd say autism fits that bill very well, but of course I don't think anyone will argue with me when I say that a mental illness and a neurodevelopmental disorder are two different things.

 

[Mary Anne]

Or do you differentiate between them at all?

Just curious.

I see them as different, but also related by virtue of both being neurological conditions....and sometimes the lines between them get blurry (like when neurodevelopmental conditions involve "thought disorder"), so it's not necessarily a black and white sort of distinction for me -- not always, at least.

It depends on how "mental illness" is being defined, whether or not I can blur the categories.....I think the definition that makes the most sense is that mental illness is a pathological/detrimental/unwanted departure from normal neurological functioning, relative to the individual. (In which case neurodevelopmental conditions are clearly different from mental illness -- they are just a person's baseline/normal neurological state/functionig -- good, bad or otherwise.) But not everyone defines it that way, as far as I know.

A person CAN have both mental illness and a neurodevelopmental disorder. Things certainly CAN overlap. Which can make some diagnosis complicated.

 

[clg114]

I believe that there is a difference. I think that the difference is that one is a psychological condition and the other a neurological condition. Mental illness is a psychological condition that a person develops later in life (after birth). This condition can be treated and possibly cured. A neurodevelopmental condition (autism) is a neurological condition that a person is born with and cannot be cured.

We are diagnosed with the criteria from the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and I also believe that there is a difference between a disorder and a illness.

It is possible (maybe probable) that what I believe is not 100% correct. However, I do know this for sure. I have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome (a form of autism) using the DSM-4 and I am NOT ill.

 

[Mary Anne]

Biological mental illnesses are neurological in addition to being psychological challenges. Initially by in the ancient days of psychology, mental illness was indeed though of in the way you describe. Luckily, times have brought new awareness and understanding. Mental illness such as schizophrenia, or bi-polar are brain chemistry imbalances that are inherited, and manifest down through generation to generation. A person is born with it! Several mental illnesses have basis in long generational inherited biological factors. Depression can also passed down generation to generation, and can manifest early on in life. Those born with inheritable illness might learn coping skills, get treatments, and take medications, but will never be “cured.” It is a lifelong illness just as Autism is! There is no “cure.”

Current Mental health Science, brain scans, gene identification, etc. have changed those old myths that somehow one gets “it” later in life, gets treated and is “cured.” As there are MANY kinds of mental illness, your assumptions are misleading, stigmatizing, archaic and destructive untruths for those with biological mental illness. As with those daily challenged by autism societal stereotypes and judgements, please understand that your statements can frustrate and anger those with a diagnosis of mental illness, who suffer with the detrimental effects daily. Mental illness can be inherited, genetic, IN ADDITION to/and OR brought on by trauma, or other external factors in a person’s life. Biological mental illnesses are neurological in addition to being psychological challenges. THEY cannot be “cured.”

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Biological mental illnesses are neurological in addition to being psychological challenges. Initially by in the ancient days of psychology, mental illness was indeed though of in the way you describe. Luckily, times have brought new awareness and understanding. Mental illness such as schizophrenia, or bi-polar are brain chemistry imbalances that are inherited, and manifest down through generation to generation. A person is born with it! Several mental illnesses have basis in long generational inherited biological factors. Depression can also passed down generation to generation, and can manifest early on in life. Those born with inheritable illness might learn coping skills, get treatments, and take medications, but will never be “cured.” It is a lifelong illness just as Autism is! There is no “cure.”

Current Mental health Science, brain scans, gene identification, etc. have changed those old myths that somehow one gets “it” later in life, gets treated and is “cured.” As there are MANY kinds of mental illness, your assumptions are misleading, stigmatizing, archaic and destructive untruths for those with biological mental illness. As with those daily challenged by autism societal stereotypes and judgements, please understand that your statements can frustrate and anger those with a diagnosis of mental illness, who suffer with the detrimental effects daily. Mental illness can be inherited, genetic, IN ADDITION to/and OR brought on by trauma, or other external factors in a person’s life. Biological mental illnesses are neurological in addition to being psychological challenges. THEY cannot be “cured.”

Interesting. Do you have an expertise in this area?

(Im not asking if you're mad )

But some links added to your post would be informative for people.

 

[Mary Anne]

Interesting. Do you have an expertise in this area?

(Im not asking if you're mad )

But some links added to your post would be informative for people.

Yes, I trained and currently work in the mental health field as a peer support specialist. I work with those with severe mental illness, which also then spreads into others areas I have worked in: homelessness, addictions, justice-impacted, etc. I have worked in three mental health agencies, and volunteered at a crisis hospital intake center for mental health emergencies. The majority of the people I work with have Schizophrenia, but I am first hand experienced several other major mental illnesses through those I help. I also research and facilitate groups on mental health topics.

All I can say is that there is plenty of scientific research and papers I had to writein the four years I have been doing this. If you have access to jstor you can find some yourself. I am pretty burnt out on this career, and deciding whether to get out fast, as it does not pay a living wage. None of the human services careers pay reasonable unless you have a Masters Degree.

 

[Gracey]

@mary Ann

What does the jstor stand for?

 

[the_tortoise]

Mental illness such as schizophrenia, or bi-polar are brain chemistry imbalances that are inherited, and manifest down through generation to generation. A person is born with it!

These are not purely genetic conditions, but epigenetic conditions. People don't directly inherit these conditions (at least not in all cases), they are born with genetic susceptibilities that make them more likely to develop these conditions.....there is no set of genes that can be said to cause schizophrenia, since people can have the genotypes that are associated with schizophrenia without ever developing it; And research with identical twins shows that schizophrenia developing in both twins happens only 40 - 50% of the time.

I am not at all disagreeing with you that mental illness can be something a person is born to develop -- maybe even born with .....but in the latter case case, how is it not neurodevelopmental if you are born with it? Then I guess it becomes more about "what is illness versus disorder versus difference", maybe....? Or maybe then it all just becomes socio-cultural/socio-political, or a matter of perspective and personal experiences?

I've actually read a lot of papers suggesting/arguing schizophrenia is better understood as a neurodevelopmental condition (one that causes mental illness)....which makes my preferred way of differentiating between the mental illness and neurodevelopmental conditions pretty useless.

 

[WereBear]

there is no set of genes that can be said to cause schizophrenia, since people can have the genotypes that are associated with schizophrenia without ever developing it; And research with identical twins shows that schizophrenia developing in both twins happens only 40 - 50% of the time.

Here’s an environmental trigger most are not aware of:

Anyway, there's a funny thing about schizophrenia, turns out that quite a few of the adult schizophrenics on an inpatient psychiatric unit in 1967 happened to have a major history of celiac disease (gluten/wheat intolerance) as children. As in 50-100 times the amount of celiac disease that one would expect by chance. Celiac doctors also noticed their patients were schizophrenic about 10X as often as the general population. That's a lot! In addition, epidemiological studies of Pacific Islanders and other populations showed a strong, dose-dependent relationship between grain intake and schizophrenia. The gluten-free populations had extremely rare occurrence of schizophrenia - just 2 in 65,000 versus about 1 in 100 as we have in the grain-eating West. When populations Westernized their diets (flour, sugar, and beer), schizophrenia became common. In some clinical trials, gluten made new-onset acutely ill schizophrenics much worse, but only occasional long-term patients responded to gluten restriction. The long-term sufferer has already had a lot of damage - if wheat somehow toxic to the brain, then it would be vital to stop the insult early on in the course of the disease to see improvement.

Wheat and Schizophrenia
Wheat and Schizophrenia​

 

[pjcnet]

I've said it many times, autism is NOT a mental illness, in fact it's not even an illness at all.

 

[Tom]

Its grey to me, but I tend to differentiate.

Like someone being blind from birth as opposed to someone becoming blind later in life due to accident or disease, etc.

 

[55853]

@mary Ann

What does the jstor stand for?

I'm not who you asked, but I've used it myself - it's a digital library - JSTOR. It's comparable to (though not the same as) google scholar which you're more likely to have heard of.

 

[Gracey]

I'm not who you asked, but I've used it myself - it's a digital library - JSTOR. It's comparable to (though not the same as) google scholar which you're more likely to have heard of.

Thank you

 

[Mary Anne]

@mary Ann

What does the jstor stand for?

It’s an academic professional resource where scientists and doctors have their research documented- universities, and subscribers can access the data. Some of it is free, but most cost $$ to access. Google and this is the description:

“JSTOR is a digital library founded in 1995. Originally containing digitized back issues of academic journals, it now also includes books and primary sources, and current issues of journals. It provides full-text searches of almost 2,000 journals. Wikipedia”