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Date that has ended in disaster due to possibly breaching unwritten social rules?

leviathan1701

Peace & Long Life
Hi there,

I know this may seem like a typical post relating to a bad date gone wrong but please hear me out.

I went on a date today with a guy who is neurotypical (just mentioning this as I'm the one who is on the autistic spectrum). If it makes any difference, both of us are gay. Unfortunately it ended in disaster. Yesterday we had a discussion on whether he wanted it to be friendly meet up or date. I wanted to allow him the freedom to choose (this was probably my first mistake) and he decided on a date. I also asked him if he was into displays of affection such as holding hands and he said yes, he would like to hold hands. I also allowed him this choice as I know some people like it, others don't. I just don't feel it was fair on him if I was solely in charge of laying down the rules. I believe that an equal say is important. I wonder if this was also another mistake I made... can situations like meet ups and dates etc. be treated like a democracy?

During the date, which was at a restaurant, he did not initiate the hand holding which I should have immediately realised that he probably didn't want to. However, I'm not a mind reader. Plus he did not say anything even after I asked repeatedly if he was comfortable. He said yes, he is comfortable. Possibly, my next mistake is that I put my hand on his leg but IN A FRIENDLY WAY. I did not squeeze or creep up his leg. I honestly thought that it's a social expectation after holding hands. Also, I honestly felt as though it was appropriate as it was my way of expressing empathy with regards to the conversation that we were having. It was not meant as an invasion of his space. I really did not mean to make him feel uncomfortable.

Afterwards, we walked around the mall and I held his arm. He did not object even after I repeatedly asked if he's comfortable. Once more, he said yes, he is comfortable.

When I got home, I received a wall of text saying he feels that we aren't suitable as a romantic couple. He's not in the "same realm as me". We should rather stay friends. That he should have spoken up during the date to say that he uncomfortable with me being so touchy and "grabby". In no way shape or form did I grab him.

Despite all of this, I feel like such an idiot. His message makes me feel like I molested him, even though I did nothing of the sort. Is it even worth it to try and stay friends with him? I really don't want to abandon him as everyone makes mistakes. He is genuinely a nice guy though.

I don't know what to do or how to think. I guess it would bring me some degree of comfort knowing if I'm not the only one who has done this before. If anyone has had experiences like this before, please feel free to share them.
 
I put my hand on his leg but IN A FRIENDLY WAY. I did not squeeze or creep up his leg. I honestly thought that it's a social expectation after holding hands

I believe this was the major mistake. He didn't consent to you putting your hand on his leg like this. IMO, touching the legs is much more intimate then holding hands. It was also a mistake to assume what was permissible for you to touch would increase in a linear fashion as the date progressed. For some people that may be the case, but others may only want to keep to a specific level of physical contact throughout the duration of the date.

Personally i would not be comfortable holding hands or any physical contact (besides a hug) during a first date. This is of course just my preference, but i say this to illustrate a point, that everyone is different when it comes to this kind of thing (what they find permissible).

Dont worry about this, you are not a bad person or an idiot. I had the same issue with this sort of thing too.

When i was in highschool i was friends with a girl that i thought was attractive. She was a very flirtly person and i (incorrectly) assumed that she was into me. One day i gently put my hand on her leg as a show of affection. Suddenly she glared at me and replied "why did you put your hand on my leg?" it scared me half to death and i apologized immediately. I was incredibly embarrassed but she forgave me and we continued being friends.

That experience taught me that consent is very important. There are many times in which making assumptions about what people want physically and or sexually is a bad idea.
 
Hi @leviathan1701,

I’m so sorry that happened – virtual hug if that’s your thing.

I’d like to preface this by stating that I’m using some figures of speech here and have, where I’ve noticed it, put them in quotation marks so they are readily identifiable for looking up if needed.

You’ve shown great courtesy and respect by giving the other guy the option of preliminarily defining the terms of the outing.

To answer your question about whether such situations can be treated as an democracy – absolutely, though I personally prefer consensus, since democracy can imply, in groups of 3 or more, a minority position being overridden and ignored, and that’s not necessarily healthy.

As you’re well aware, one of the biggest challenges that we face on the spectrum is that we like rules and follow them “to a T” – and some of us are also eager to please. But of course with rules, we often don’t get into exception situations, which we may have difficulty intuiting, especially “on the fly”. We also have challenges, as you’ve noted, with reading the unspoken gestures and motions which may convey messages which we weren’t looking for and therefore may not have contemporarily noticed.

By asking him, and more than once, if he was comfortable with things proceeding as they were, you’ve again shown courtesy. Where things get awkward here is it sounds like when he responded that he was comfortable, that he did not literally mean that – he was saying that out of politeness. This brings us to one of the other challenges of social convention – when people say things out of politeness or as a “stock” statement or response where one is not supposed to interpret the statement literally. A common example is when someone asks “how are you?” and it’s intended to be a greeting for which one responds “fine, thank you” rather than being a literal question about one’s state.

As @cornman noted, when it comes to physical contact of any sort, it's generally a best practice to explicitly ask before initiating anything just to make sure everyone is in agreement on what is okay. As I've noted in another post, it's not exactly romantic, but it is respectful and helps keeps things safe for everyone involved.

His wall of text afterwards basically states that he’s upset, and this is really unfortunate, as a mismatch of communication styles (your preference for the explicit, and his preference for the implied) meant that when you thought you were doing the right thing and what he wanted, that it was actually making him uncomfortable.

Where you go from here is up to you. If they’re already someone you know, rather than someone you’re meeting for the first time, I’d say it’s perfectly fine to keep in touch, and maybe when the time is right, to explain that you prefer direct and literal communication, and that you’re sorry about any misunderstandings. If conversely, this is someone you’ve only met for the first time and you don’t have shared social networks or connections, you may wish to consider this as a lesson learned and move on if they don’t seem interested in proceeding with casual friendship or other relationship.
 
It is OK to date and find out that you were not compatible. Given your discussion it does not seem that you overstepped boundaries. It seems to me that the person you were with had communication issues.


In my dates with girls/women I had a different problem. I was so poor at communication and at the same time was concerned about being disrespectful, that I didn't quite know the proper way to make my feelings known. Now, what I regret is not what I did, but what I was afraid to communicate and do.
 
I think you acted right or okay. ok maybe first ask and then touch, but I know that many people don´t do it either and some turned into couples because of that or with that.

I find it good that you asked him always if he feels comfortable.

I would have had no problem if a woman had acted like this on me, after your description.

and it is totally okay that you made the first step even as a woman, because everyone can make the first step. I dislike it that some women think me as man should do the first step. sometimes I find it easier if the woman does the first step.

and I find it really depends on HOW someone touches someone. if a woman would touch me rough or fast, it would wear me. if it is very slow and sensitive, it is maybe no problem. but asking before is always the best or to imply it, without doing and with waiting for the reaction of the other person.

he could have said that he don´t like it or act concludent, but he didn´t anything, he instead said that he felt comfortable. you can not read minds. maybe he was not sure about his feelings, don´t know.

you can instead date me, if you want. haha (irony?) : P

oh oops, you are male : D :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy: I´m heterosexual. lol.

If it makes any difference, both of us are gay.

I should read everything lol. I don´t know, I´m not gay, but I don´t think that it makes a difference. but I can not really answer it.
 
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and I find it really depends on HOW someone touches someone.
I process things like social touch too slowly and it makes me think less of myself and I feel sad. I believe I have mentioned before an incident from last year. I was helping at a get together and was the grill master because I enjoy strutting my stuff cooking. Done with the grilling I headed up to where people were gathered to snag a brew and brat. As I sidled past a group of women one reached out and caressed my upper arm. I paid no attention to it and later when I realized what happened, felt bad about not pausing and making a friendly connection.
 
It's sad it didn't turn out the way you hoped. Do you think you were more attracted then they were? It's a two way street. One person doesn't usually call the shots unless there is an imbalance of power.

Maybe just talk to them in a week, and apologize for coming on to strong. Maybe this might help out. You may not be wrong but you are backpedling and doing damage control.
 
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He may just not be comfortable, being seen as gay in public, may have nothing to do with his autism. I am not all that comfortable holding hands even with my wife in public some times depend where we are, read the get a room body language from others.
 
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I think you probably put too much faith in what you had already checked, and didn't find it easy in the actual date to read the situation. But he was too polite, he let you think it was ok, then dumped on you a bit, later by text.

Passive aggressive? Or just anxious and blamey? Either way, he's more friend material than potential partner, I would think, if he's nice overall maybe just apologise profusely and say you'd like to be friends.
 
Happens all the time to people who are NT as well. Most NTs have thicker skin so they get over it quickly. I knew a guy who said he might as well swing at every ball that comes his way because it only takes one hit in a lifetime and it doesn't hurt to miss.

I believe that attitude doesn't come so easily to most of us here. "Missing" feels more like a deeply personal rejection and an invalidation of our being.

I need thicker skin.
 
I believe that attitude doesn't come so easily to most of us here. "Missing" feels more like a deeply personal rejection and an invalidation of our being.
You have got that right. I wonder at how we tend to personalize everything. When we do that things start feeling like rejection on a massive scale. For me the social and sexual isolation was traumatic, especially since even when I thought poorly of myself, I actually believed that I was studying and working to be a worthwhile person. Recently I read a literature review of male virgins significantly older than the median age for first sex. The social expectations drive the formation of a negative self concept as well as negative body image. To feel that negative is an invalidation of the worthwhile people we are.
 
Hey @leviathan1701, there's nothing I can add here, other than to send you a huggy octopus!

:octopus:

An octopus is exceptional at hugging - and will ask for consent first too. If you don't want the octopus to hug you, he can unplug your sink for you, open jars or do other useful things like this! :)

Wishing you a better date next time. I'm in the camp that says I'd not hold hands with anyone I'd just met either, I don't do demonstrations before I actually know someone and feel something - but we're all different and the great tapestry etc etc. Good luck and good wishes. :sunflower:
 
I process things like social touch too slowly and it makes me think less of myself and I feel sad. I believe I have mentioned before an incident from last year. I was helping at a get together and was the grill master because I enjoy strutting my stuff cooking. Done with the grilling I headed up to where people were gathered to snag a brew and brat. As I sidled past a group of women one reached out and caressed my upper arm. I paid no attention to it and later when I realized what happened, felt bad about not pausing and making a friendly connection.
she probably thought you were available.
 
Fortunately, my autism gave me the ability to read body language. Just did not like taking advantage of it, until College, needed every cent to pay tuition and living costs. Dating not in the cards. Lots of Women hit on me. Meet wife in rooming house I ran after I graduated college, she was one of my tenants.
 
Fortunately, my autism gave me the ability to read body language. Just did not like taking advantage of it, until College, needed every cent to pay tuition and living costs. Dating not in the cards. Lots of Women hit on me. Meet wife in rooming house I ran after I graduated college, she was one of my tenants.
What is it like to have lots of women hitting on you and being able to notice it in the moment? It is an experience that is completely alien to me.
 
Some of them were pretty direct, sort of like assertive guys tying to pick up women, I was ultra focused at getting my education and then a decent position. Keep in mind I did not know I was a Aspie then. One time I went swimming and was a small raft she and a friend piled on she put her hands around my neck we both fell in the water. thought I would drown under water with her hanging on, me tying to break the surface with both our weights. barely had time to get her name. I kept it quiet when I was working, other guts would talk how much they wanted to get together with some of the more attractive women not knowing they were interested in me the quiet strange guy who kept to myself. My best friend whom married a high school classmate of mine while we were in college when I mentioned these incidences to my wife. he confirmed yes strangely enough I was a babe magnet. I took him to a party I was invited to by one of the girls interested in me he meet his future wife there. His five daughters know the story well. He just shakes his head, does not know what they all see. Must be a combination, of brains looks and or pheromones. I personally blame it on pheromones, when my head slightly sweats my pillow tends to have a strong ester smell so strong even I can smell it. very pleasant.

You may have been a magnet all along without knowing it. Not sure if being aware helps. Fortunately my wife is my equal she attracts guys years ago a guy hit on her while we were in a elevator together he apologized when he realized his mistake. We just laughed, not the first time.
 
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When I left home and wandered off to college it was a pleasant surprise that a few women were attracted to me. So much of my self-perceived unattractiveness was baggage from high school. Once you get defined that way by your peers, not only can you not change their attitude, if you try to change your behavior they act like you are stepping out of your assigned place. They try to force you back into the image they already have.

So suddenly I'm far from home but so is everyone else. I have a narrow window of opportunity to redefine how people see me. I may not be able to become the cool kid on campus but I can definitely be better than I was. Don't forget that the girls are looking to experiment with their freedom too.
 
While touching a leg of someone interested in you in public isn't generally a deal breaker, if you don't know if it's okay or not, it could be a bit of a surprise. Ironically, he might've said you two aren't in the same realm because you have to ask so many question and the whole experience comes off as too socially awkward. You can try the platonic request, but don't have too much expectation and look for other people and things to focus on.

When you asked him if he wanted to be friends or dating, I think it would sound better to say that you're interested in dating him. Is he? And if not, you can ask about platonic friendship if he doesn't mention it as part of his reply. Something about the way you describe it doesn't sound entirely natural to me. I definitely make mistakes similar to this. It's hard for people like us to mesh well, and sometimes, depending on the person, we might not want to mesh with so and so ourselves, lol.

Confidence is attractive, and it sounds like you and the other potential partner were not very confident. Also, most people don't know how they feel in the moment or want to deal with direct conflict. So, they wait until after they are not in-person anymore to communicate their thoughts etc. Sometimes, people including myself will say one thing which is partially true, but maybe there could be other guy(s) he likes more. If you aren't sure, always better to do less than more but especially in public. There certainly comes a point where if someone isn't reciprocating well enough after a certain period of time (say 4-8 weeks or so), then it's best to move on because you want someone that is truly into you too.
 
I had a mess of a situation. While not what you're going through, maybe this will help the discussion and maybe not. One reason why people aren't 100% honest about certain things is because things can get skewed and manipulated. Even if they can deal with it, doesn't meant they want to.

'===============

I had a person I "matched" with on an app whom we'll call A. I told him from the beginning I was not interested in him romantically and we were platonic about 6-8 months. Turns out A and I have a mutual friend in common later on, whom I'll call U. I was an fwb with U. During this time, he asked me a weird what-if question and asked what I did with other fwbs. I got in a conflict with A because he was touching me inappropriately. Later on, he used the fwb part of the conversation and tried to manipulate it as if he didn't know that he couldn't touch me in certain ways. A couldn't stop arguing about the issue with me. So I kept simplifying things and blocking contact. Eventually, I stopped going to U's social parties because I wasn't having fun and wasn't getting along with his other friends.

U and I continued our fwb and enjoyed each others company maybe about 8 months after that mess with A started. One day, U tells me that unless I "talk" with A, he doesn't want to hang out with me anymore. I say I understand and tell him we aren't hanging out anymore.

Myself, A, and U are all on the spectrum.
 

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