Communication help for double autistic marriage

[yogabanana]

Hi. I'm having arguments with my husband and need help with how to explain things. We are both autistic but I am very much emotionally oriented. I don't care as much about facts, logic and reason as he does. I don't care about evidence. Truth be told I think that he's using a lot of emotional reasoning right now but he thinks of himself as a reasonable and logical person so he can't see that about himself by me pointing it out.

I need help with how to explain confirmation bias to him. He thinks I am picking fights because I try to discuss an issue and we end up fighting. I need him to understand that:

(a) If he believes I'm picking fights then:
i. His brain is looking for evidence of that and he is more likely to make snotty comments, roll his eyes, raise his voice, get defensive/exasperated, assume the worst about my intent/behavior, etc. (all of which are likely to turn a conversation into an argument), and
ii. This results in him projecting a specific expectation and then creating a choke point so that we have no other path forward besides the one he created because he expected it so much that his responses to me prevented anything else except for me abandoning my goal to solve a problem altogether, and

(b) other possible explanations exist, such as
i. me wanting to talk not argue and him not believing that, or
ii. him not having the skills to talk instead of argue so it ends up as an argument.

I also need him to understand if other explanations are valid, then the issue isn't wife tries to talk and we fight so it's her fault for trying to talk. I need him to see where his thinking is skipping a step there. As in, perhaps:

wife tries to talk > husband lacks skills to keep himself calm/remind himself that we are on the same team/remind himself to listen with an open mind/use active listening signals > conversation becomes an argument

In the cause and consequences chain above the issue is how husband responds to attempts to communicate not the communication itself. So if he doesn't like what is happening he needs to see his participation in that.

Sometimes my husband does see it in the moment but still blames me for his lack of skills. Like "you knew it wasn't going well/I wasn't responding well" therefore it's my fault the conversation failed to achieve a constructive outcome. I think he needs to take responsibility for his poor response to my efforts due to skill deficits not expect me to just cater to his deficiency in communication/ listening/self soothing/conflict management skills.

He seems to think I should just not try to discuss something rather than expecting him to learn the skills to be able to talk without arguing. I think that's an unrealistic expectation and if we can't discuss things we will either have a more distant, disconnected marriage or things will come out as resentment and passive aggressiveness.

How can I get him to actually see what seems to be going on from my perspective when he is being very black or white in his thinking and making a lot of assumptions that he is then sure about and unable to consider alternative points of view? He is an engineer by trade so if you can explain in terms an engineer could especially understand I would appreciate that framing very much.

 

[AO1501]

There is, of course, the possibility that he is actually right, and that it is your proposition(s) that are wrong. After all, when you say he is being very black and white, that isn't exactly a choice, it's a fact of his life. It's also odd to expect him to see things from your perspective if that is something he can't actually do. His failure to do this may be your failure to explain it in his terms.

Anyway, since that could be seen as too combative, what I suggest is that you try and flow chart it out, so that he can see the logical steps and the logical and derisive result of the simple 'yes'/'no', if this-then, picture of how it works. When presented with the flowchart, you can then work together on finding new steps that could be added to change the available outcomes.

Flowcharts have the benefit of being very binary, and visually appealing to many rationally minded people who don't see grey areas and the wishy-washy blurriness of real life. And might satisfy the processes of an engineer quite well.

 

[paloftoon]

The flowchart is a superb idea.

These two different personality types are not a very good match at all. Since you're married, it seems both of you need your own space more and to come to compromises on various things. I'd suggest a marriage counselor immediately to help both of you work out your various issues.

 

[Judge]

The possibility of binary versus non-binary arguments. I could see how that could be so problematic between two persons on the spectrum. Reminding me in hindsight of how my college major served me well in the NT world. In that it freed me somewhat from so much regimented binary thinking, allowing me to see those "256 shades of grey" between black and white arguments.

But finding common ground in such a scenario presented by the OP, that could be difficult depending on what is the foundation for their general outlook on things. And whether or not either of them are capable of altering such perspectives, which may or may not be neurologically "hard-wired" into their psyches.

Odd for me to recall all my past relationships with NT women, in that somehow I never got into these type of arguments. Yet the "neurological gap" between them and myself always showed up with my traits and behaviors alienating them on various ways which still lead to the demise of each of those relationships. Even though the conflict of binary and non-binary thinking never seemed to be an issue. Maybe it was my own perception that was flawed.

 

[Rodafina]

From my perspective, it sounds like you need a bit more give-and-take from both of you. There is some sort of miscommunication happening despite the fact that you are both autistic. Of course, we all experience autism in different ways.

But your post suggests that he needs to change his behavior and instincts in a number of ways, but you do not necessarily recognize where you could also change yours to meet his needs. It will be a meeting in the middle rather than either party coming to the other ones side.

I could be reading more into this then is correct, but it sounds like there is already a good amount of resentment building up and you are feeling unheard and invalidated. He may be feeling exactly the same way but expresses it differently.

I happen to fall hard on the side of evidence and logic, and one of the benefits of this is that it can be less emotional. Taking a logical approach to problems can remove much of the emotion from it and focus on the neutral things and those that are true, those that are not, and those that are purely subjective experiences.

 

[yogabanana]

There is, of course, the possibility that he is actually right, and that it is your proposition(s) that are wrong. After all, when you say he is being very black and white, that isn't exactly a choice, it's a fact of his life. It's also odd to expect him to see things from your perspective if that is something he can't actually do. His failure to do this may be your failure to explain it in his terms.

Anyway, since that could be seen as too combative, what I suggest is that you try and flow chart it out, so that he can see the logical steps and the logical and derisive result of the simple 'yes'/'no', if this-then, picture of how it works. When presented with the flowchart, you can then work together on finding new steps that could be added to change the available outcomes.

Flowcharts have the benefit of being very binary, and visually appealing to many rationally minded people who don't see grey areas and the wishy-washy blurriness of real life. And might satisfy the processes of an engineer quite well.

His perspective is framed objectively. It cannot be correct because of the way it's framed. He's framing it as he knows The Truth about what is happening vs his interpretation of it. The truth is we both are filtering things and interpreting things and neither of us actually knows or owns a fully objective view of the situation because that's not possible (at least not for the specific things being said and done in the current situation).

The problem is partly that he believes he's seeing objectively because he is not seeing objective information plus interpretation/filter equals his version of events, their meaning, my behavior, his behavior, etc.

Great idea for a flow chart. I tried to basically do some form of that in my OP but visually would make more sense.

 

[yogabanana]

From my perspective, it sounds like you need a bit more give-and-take from both of you. There is some sort of miscommunication happening despite the fact that you are both autistic. Of course, we all experience autism in different ways.

But your post suggests that he needs to change his behavior and instincts in a number of ways, but you do not necessarily recognize where you could also change yours to meet his needs. It will be a meeting in the middle rather than either party coming to the other ones side.

I could be reading more into this then is correct, but it sounds like there is already a good amount of resentment building up and you are feeling unheard and invalidated. He may be feeling exactly the same way but expresses it differently.

I happen to fall hard on the side of evidence and logic, and one of the benefits of this is that it can be less emotional. Taking a logical approach to problems can remove much of the emotion from it and focus on the neutral things and those that are true, those that are not, and those that are purely subjective experiences.

I do recognize that I need to make changes too. I didn't write about that because it wasn't relevant to my goal. I understand that relationship issues require adjustment from both people.

The problem in part is that I am already capable of seeing from more than one point of view. I work as a therapist and developed good perspective taking skills in the process of educating for that but I don't like the lack of reciprocity for it. My position is we both have concerns let's find a win win outcome. His is less nuanced and more about ending the conversation than solving anything in a way that makes sense to both of us.

I basically find it unfair that he is not working to understand where I am coming from and seeing himself as objectively right about things that don't actually contain objective truth.

If I can't get him to loosen his belief that I'm just trying to fight then the rest of the productive communication, growth, resolution of issues, increased understanding of each other etc cannot happen. His belief prevents anything constructive from happening as it means I try to prove otherwise and fail (because the lack of skills on his end and his confirmation bias mean he engages in unhelpful communication/behavior until it becomes a fight), I give up on my effort and the issue goes unresolved but still causes issues, and I'm not even sure any other outcomes are possible.

 

[Judge]

Ironic to think of the number of times where I suggested to a neurotypical that they may have to become accustomed to taking the lead in a relationship with someone who is neurodiverse.

That despite any sense of maintaining equality in a relationship, that they may in fact have to assume a role well beyond an "50-50" understanding. It may not be considered "fair" in any ethical sense, but rather one of relative pragmatism in order to keep the relationship from failing.

I never considered that with a relationship between two persons on the spectrum that one might actually have to do the same in order to preserve the relationship itself. That not all compromises are inherently equal, or even intended as such. But then I've never had the opportunity of a relationship with my own kind, either.

 

[yogabanana]

Ironic to think of the number of times where I suggested to a neurotypical that they may have to become accustomed to taking the lead in a relationship with someone who is neurodiverse.

That despite any sense of maintaining equality in a relationship, that they may in fact have to assume a role well beyond an "50-50" understanding. It may not be considered "fair" in any ethical sense, but rather one of relative pragmatism in order to keep the relationship from failing.

I never considered that with a relationship between two persons on the spectrum that one might actually have to do the same in order to preserve the relationship itself. That not all compromises are inherently equal, or even intended as such. But then I've never had the opportunity of a relationship with my own kind, either.

I recognize as the person with more relationship oriented skills, that a certain amount of additional work on my end is necessary.

I just think that much of this involves skills that can be learned, and the doggedness of his perspective is working against us and it's just not fair that he is blaming me for negative outcomes due to lack of skills on his part.

I'm too stubborn to just roll over and let him steamroll me with his presumed objective reality that isn't really.

Black or white thinking can be inherent to autism but I don't know if I've ever seen any research suggesting a person with autism is incapable of learning to assess for alternative interpretations of things. Only that it's not necessarily natural. But cognitive behavioral therapy exists because being locked into a specific point of view is relatively common for all kinds of people including NTs. That's the whole point of it. It works. So, it is possible to learn cognitive flexibility. I know a lot of autistics don't like CBT (myself included) but that doesn't mean one cannot learn to think with more flexibility. Does it?

Yeah I'm a weirdo in the autistic community being so emotionally aware/oriented. My approach to rigidity appears to be an atypical adaptation also. Rather than drilling into binaries I am rigid about the subjectivity of things so nobody invades my autonomy with their perspective. I am not trying to convince my husband that I'm right in any objective sense. Just get him to see that two things can be true and they can both seem right while neither actually IS right in a way that deletes the others validity.

(And that being right is a dumb goal to have in a relationship conflict. To avoid arguments the goal needs to be something else like understanding, conveying good listening, making amends for perceived wrongs or resolving misunderstanding/miscommunication. For him that last one looks like "I know what's best and you need to just accept that my version of truth is superior to yours because I assume that I am thinking better than you are due to coming to a different conclusion from you" or "I think your interpretation of the situation doesn't make sense therefore I have no obligation in the social contract of a marriage to accommodate it.")

 

[Judge]

Black or white thinking can be inherent to autism but I don't know if I've ever seen any research suggesting a person with autism is incapable of learning to assess for alternative interpretations of things.

I was one who was greatly influenced academically-speaking in learning how to "read in between the lines". Particularly with regards to some of the most peculiar examples of human behavior. When I learned the extraordinary numbers of "shades of grey" that can exist between black and white.

I know a lot of autistics don't like CBT (myself included) but that doesn't mean one cannot learn to think with more flexibility. Does it?

A somewhat complicated question for me.

In theory I agree. In practice, I personally got nowhere with CBT pertinent to my OCD. Go figure. I also got nowhere with an HMO therapist, but I refuse to condemn the process. Accepting that it works for many, and on occasion not for some.

Yeah I'm a weirdo in the autistic community being so emotionally aware/oriented.

Not necessarily, IMO. Being a member here for nearly ten years, I don't see you as any kind of "weirdo". No more than I came to understand that some of our ranks consist of true extroverts. Something that seems to confound some NTs. If anything we really are on a broad spectrum of traits and behaviors. Where it's sometimes a mistake to make narrow interpretations of who and what we are.

(And that being right is a dumb goal to have in a relationship conflict.

Indeed, that seems profoundly true from the perspective of making most any relationship work.

To avoid arguments the goal needs to be something else like understanding, conveying good listening, making amends for perceived wrongs or resolving misunderstanding/miscommunication. For him that last one looks like "I know what's best and you need to just accept that my version of truth is superior to yours because I assume that I am thinking better than you are due to coming to a different conclusion from you" or "I think your interpretation of the situation doesn't make sense therefore I have no obligation in the social contract of a marriage to accommodate it.")

That's a fair point. Quite logical, though whether or not one has the ability and desire to reason in such a manner to overcome their conditional, black-and-white thinking is anyone's guess.

Rather than focus on any issue at hand, but rather focus on whether or not it can be fairly- and mutually resolved.

But in the event a partner refuses to even consider such a course of action, it would paint a pretty grim picture in terms of viable alternatives in attempting to keep a relationship whole. Especially if or when people cling to their beliefs based on ideology rather than logic. Where one essentially "marries an idea" and becomes intransigent with considerations that all ideas eventually wane and require either restructuring or abandonment.

 

[Magna]

@yogabanana Do you know about AANE.org (Aspergers and Autism Network) and their relationship counseling? They also offer anyone a free 30 minute phone consult with an autism specialist to talk about what your issue is and then they can suggest the best course of action as to what kinds of things they offer. They do zoom counseling with couples who are struggling with relationship issues.

 

[Magna]

I hope you two are able to work through this. I wish relationship success for any two people, but even more so for two from my own clan/tribe....

 

[yogabanana]

I did not know that. Thank you. I am having a hard time finding places that recognize my own autism playing into this since on the surface it may not be apparent but it's definitely a factor.

(e g. Last night I was perseverating. I got stuck because I didn't understand something he did - he saw I needed to open the bottom drawer of the dishwasher before we could load it but he just stood there waiting on me to figure that out too rather than say hey you need to open the bottom drawer so we can load the dishwasher. I did not understand why he didn't use his words to tell me what he assumed I already knew and he thought I wanted to argue because I couldn't understand why he did it like that. I could not let it go for a bit. I kept asking questions sometimes the same one because what he was saying wasn't making sense to me. He reacts to this like I have much more control over it than I actually have. Me having a hard time integrating information that didn't fit my existing internal models doesn't mean I'm trying to pick a fight.)

@yogabanana Do you know about AANE.org (Aspergers and Autism Network) and their relationship counseling? They also offer anyone a free 30 minute phone consult with an autism specialist to talk about what your issue is and then they can suggest the best course of action as to what kinds of things they offer. They do zoom counseling with couples who are struggling with relationship issues.

 

[yogabanana]

I hope you two are able to work through this. I wish relationship success for any two people, but even more so for two from my own clan/tribe....

Thank you. We have been through much worse but when cycles flare up and start becoming more frequent I get frustrated and remember that I can only do so much, and he has to do the rest, and I get stuck figuring out how to get him to see that part.

 

[AO1501]

I just think that much of this involves skills that can be learned, and the doggedness of his perspective is working against us and it's just not fair that he is blaming me for negative outcomes due to lack of skills on his part.

The first part of this is certainly possible. As time goes by, I find myself less and less prepared towards flexibility in my approach to something, or my thinking about it. If I catch myself with this mindset, I can - usually do - modify my responses, knowing that the inflexibility isn't a sign of being right, but being stubborn.

I was certainly not quite that inflexible in years gone by - as far as I know.

The second part is less clear, if only because there's only one side of a two-sided dynamic on display here, and the choice of description of his behaviors may not actually be correct. Alternatively, if he truly does lack skills, then he isn't so much being 'unfair', as exhibiting the lack of appropriate skills.

As I said in my initial reply, this isn't something you might see as constructive, but there are two sides to this.

For your earlier thoughts, the only form of communication you can be sure will work with a black and white thinker is one in black and white (hence suggesting the flowchart). I suspect that engaging him constructively and collaboratively rather than confrontationally (in his mind, that is) is an important key, because while he's on the other side of the argument, it doesn't seem likely he'll move this thinking. Getting him on the same side you are by diagramming it out in binary terms, is more likely to show him how it works.

 

[yogabanana]

The first part of this is certainly possible. As time goes by, I find myself less and less prepared towards flexibility in my approach to something, or my thinking about it. If I catch myself with this mindset, I can - usually do - modify my responses, knowing that the inflexibility isn't a sign of being right, but being stubborn.

I was certainly not quite that inflexible in years gone by - as far as I know.

The second part is less clear, if only because there's only one side of a two-sided dynamic on display here, and the choice of description of his behaviors may not actually be correct. Alternatively, if he truly does lack skills, then he isn't so much being 'unfair', as exhibiting the lack of appropriate skills.

As I said in my initial reply, this isn't something you might see as constructive, but there are two sides to this.

For your earlier thoughts, the only form of communication you can be sure will work with a black and white thinker is one in black and white (hence suggesting the flowchart). I suspect that engaging him constructively and collaboratively rather than confrontationally (in his mind, that is) is an important key, because while he's on the other side of the argument, it doesn't seem likely he'll move this thinking. Getting him on the same side you are by diagramming it out in binary terms, is more likely to show him how it works.

The unfair bit is him assuming I'm picking a fight because I try to discuss something and he lacks the skills to do so without turning it into a fight. He skips the part he is responsible for and decides if I start a conversation and it results in an argument it must be my fault. That's not sound logic.

Last night I spent a considerable amount of time (15 minutes?) keeping myself calm, pointing out his actions that would escalate a conversation to become a conflict and asking if that's what he wants. Eventually he made a comment that unfortunately got under my skin and then we were in a fight, but not before that.

He seems to honestly believe that I orchestrated this fight even though I spent at least 15 minutes pointing out that I was trying to communicate calmly and constructively so we could get on with the rest of our evening together while he was raising his voice, making global negative statements, interrupting me, interpreting my actions with negative assumptions, etc.

I was perseverating and I'm sure that gets really annoying but I was also trying to resolve the confusion and it is boggling my mind that he could act like that and then think I somehow orchestrated the whole thing.

I also work very hard to be compassionate and understanding about his autistic and ADHD traits. I pointed out in the moment that my repetition was perseverating and I was doing the best I could to stop, that him behaving aggressively would increase my anxiety and make it harder to stop, and that it was hard to hear him talking about my autism as if it's something negative I am doing to him when I am doing my best to minimize negative outcomes.

I told him it was frustrating to me that I could show him such a strong effort to be compassionate about his ND traits but right now he cannot return that compassion and that hurts me. He said "oh now you're picking a different fight" and that's when I got fed up with trying to hold his hand through everything and we began to argue, because that didn't feel like a great way to respond to what I had said.

Me asking why he didn't say "you need to open the bottom drawer of the dishwasher so we can load it" and just stood there waiting on me to magically know that is what he was thinking is what started all of this. He thinks me seeking to understand why he didn't use words to make something explicit that wasn't explicit for me was me picking a fight. Now you have more context.

And yes I see your point about the flow chart and getting buy in. I am sure a flow chart would be easier for him to understand. I just find it annoying that I am doing soooo much work while it feels to me he's doing very little. Again, that doesn't feel fair.

Oh and today is our wedding anniversary too. Almost a decade together and you'd think we could avoid issues like this. Its hard not to think if he would believe what I'm saying about gaps in his understanding of a situation maybe we could have gotten past this stuff many years ago. He doesn't see a reason to work on himself because he thinks I'm doing this "to him."

 

[AO1501]

I read that, and I can see the frustration - and if I can see it, there must be a lot. There certainly appears to be considerable blame being aimed from both sides, and no small amount of resentment mixed in there too.

I would say that no autistic person has a license to use that as an excuse - autism creates 'limitations' not a get out of jail free card - and if he is barricading himself behind his autism, he's in the wrong. We can learn and we do learn about relationships. At least many of us do.

It's sad when the best option is counseling, but it does sound like you have little real option. I hope you're able to find a way through this, and that it works out.

For context, I'm in a long term ND/ND relationship and my wife and I work really well together almost always, but when we don't, it's usually because one or both of us is having a bad day and we get jammed by or with each other. We both see each other as the problem when that happens, even though we're really just stuck because of ourselves. We've been happy for years, but still have these bumps in the road. We tend to use normal kinds of unjamming methods on each other, which works for us because we both know why it was that we got together.

Best of luck.

 

[Aspychata]

Everybody has given fantastic advice here. To me it feels like you are riding argument pattern and it is becoming engraved, and it's easier to do , then really try to listen to what is the issue, and what's the resolution, and as two grown adults, how can we get there?



My partner would totally shut conversations about finances by blowing up with a argument and l just stepped away. I also pointed out that when we did discuss money, he reacted very strongly, and with anger. I said l am just talking about this, l don't understand where your anger is coming from. And we did get past it. Perhaps you can go to a neutral place, (not the house) and sit down, discuss things, and no arguments. Like when you first met, and jelled so well together. If you create pattern of no arguments, then this will facilitate understanding, and your relationship will mature, but it will take some work. Also don't come to the table with nit picky things, just work on something that you would really like changed. Ask him what he would like you to do differently. Then both of you need to think if theare se realistic requests. Once you get locked into arguing, it's a downhill ride, and will end up in resentment. I told somebody, l will not take your mom's role and argue. That seem to cut that BS routine

 

[paloftoon]

His perspective is framed objectively. It cannot be correct because of the way it's framed. He's framing it as he knows The Truth about what is happening vs his interpretation of it. The truth is we both are filtering things and interpreting things and neither of us actually knows or owns a fully objective view of the situation because that's not possible (at least not for the specific things being said and done in the current situation).

The problem is partly that he believes he's seeing objectively because he is not seeing objective information plus interpretation/filter equals his version of events, their meaning, my behavior, his behavior, etc.

Great idea for a flow chart. I tried to basically do some form of that in my OP but visually would make more sense.

As a group, we can only judge specific contexts and specific examples we're given. Generally speaking, your way of thinking is not always right and not his either. Some things are better well defined, some are better with emotions, and some are not necessarily better with one or another. It really depends on each individual matter and if both parties are being reasonably considered per issue.

 

[paloftoon]

I do recognize that I need to make changes too. I didn't write about that because it wasn't relevant to my goal. I understand that relationship issues require adjustment from both people.

The problem in part is that I am already capable of seeing from more than one point of view. I work as a therapist and developed good perspective taking skills in the process of educating for that but I don't like the lack of reciprocity for it. My position is we both have concerns let's find a win win outcome. His is less nuanced and more about ending the conversation than solving anything in a way that makes sense to both of us.

I basically find it unfair that he is not working to understand where I am coming from and seeing himself as objectively right about things that don't actually contain objective truth.

If I can't get him to loosen his belief that I'm just trying to fight then the rest of the productive communication, growth, resolution of issues, increased understanding of each other etc cannot happen. His belief prevents anything constructive from happening as it means I try to prove otherwise and fail (because the lack of skills on his end and his confirmation bias mean he engages in unhelpful communication/behavior until it becomes a fight), I give up on my effort and the issue goes unresolved but still causes issues, and I'm not even sure any other outcomes are possible.

You and him engaging with a third party counselor will help determine if he can open up.
If he isn't able to open up reasonably, you probably should consider divorce because you both are not able to work with each other and aren't able to reasonably compromise with each other. It may be mostly him or not. We really aren't sure. Those come to the specific examples.