Christians, can we talk?

[Greatshield17]

I’m having a really rough day today, and it reminds me that I don’t have that many people to talk to. I mentioned in another thread that the communication in my family is abysmal, and we practically just don’t understand each other at all. (Again, I’m not just talking about me and my parents, I’m talking about every single one of us in my family.)

Apart from those in Heaven, I don’t have that many spiritual brothers and sisters to talk to either, both because of my Aspergers, but also because of what’s happening in the Catholic Church; to be brutally frank, I think that the Church is now at, or approaching a point that the prophet Isaiah spoke of in Isaiah 6:9-11, where conversion is, or will, only be available to those who will genuinely repent and believe. I have met so many Catholics (not all) who just don’t care, the only reason I, myself am Catholic is because I do care and I do believe, and I am far, very far from the kind of Catholic I want to be.

On the Autistic side of things, it’s a bit easier to talk, that’s what I love so much about this forum, I do have non-religious things I can, and/or plan on talking about here. But my Faith is important to me and it’s hard for me to express these things to non-Catholics on here. I want some people to talk to about things Faith-related, if there aren’t that many Catholics on here to discuss things, maybe talking to other Christians and people who believe in the God of Israel will help a bit.

So can we talk about things?

 

[The Pandector]

I would welcome that opportunity, Greatshield17. I am not Catholic but share your views on what I usually think of as a general falling away from biblical faith. It seems that the church population as a whole is no more prepared than the world at large for a serious trial of faith. Our God is the God of the living.

 

[Greatshield17]

Hi @The Pandector sorry it took me so long to reply, I was on my way back to place. I’m about to go into meditation for a bit, if you like, you can decide what we shall talk about first. I’ll be back in several minutes.

Thanks.

 

[The Pandector]

Where to begin?

You feel that your family doesn’t hear each other. I have been having problems along those lines. It seems to me that most NTs operate on an instinctual level. They don’t worry so much about what is actually said, it seems, as the impressions they give or receive. I just don’t have that encoding and decoding software.

 

[The Pandector]

BTW —
Severe weather has made my inet flaky. I might disappear on and off.

 

[Greatshield17]

Where to begin?

You feel that your family doesn’t hear each other. I have been having problems along those lines. It seems to me that most NTs operate on an instinctual level. They don’t worry so much about what is actually said, it seems, as the impressions they give or receive. I just don’t have that encoding and decoding software.

Well I’m not sure if you mean the same thing or not. What I mean by my family is that they seem simply insensitive; they don’t understand each other and don’t seem to be trying to understand each other. There seems to be constant friction in my family where poor communications and misunderstandings just build up until someone starts acting out in a passive-aggressive fashion.

Again, I’m not sure if that is what you mean or not, I may have explained something poorly either here or above. If you’re talking about about social cues, and expecting things not to be taken literally, I do get that also, and have seen that often among other NTs. I do struggle trying to figure out how something is supposed to be taken, whether it’s hyperbolic or meant to be taken in a specific sense.

 

[The Pandector]

Hmmm...
Yeah, it sounds a bit different. But the part about them not really trying to understand is familiar. Another person in this space made interesting comments about NTs, in general, often failing to go beyond the first surface layer of an issue.

I've often noticed how difficult it is to speak about something as totally transcendent as religion, with someone who is not comfortable going beyond that first cursory glance at something. Then, when someone does go that extra mile, it so often seems they have already drawn their conclusions.

Then there's that rare situation where two people can talk where each listens first. I'm looking for people who are willing to try that.

 

[Greatshield17]

Hmmm...
Yeah, it sounds a bit different. But the part about them not really trying to understand is familiar. Another person in this space made interesting comments about NTs, in general, often failing to go beyond the first surface layer of an issue.

I've often noticed how difficult it is to speak about something as totally transcendent as religion, with someone who is not comfortable going beyond that first cursory glance at something. Then, when someone does go that extra mile, it so often seems they have already drawn their conclusions.

Then there's that rare situation where two people can talk where each listens first. I'm looking for people who are willing to try that.

Yes, I get what you’re saying about this subject in particular, I often struggle with NTs not being interested in the big things, or the important things. I mean sometimes I get why people don’t want to talk about certain things, like death and the afterlife, or, to a rather lesser extent, societies and civilizations going bad; but on other things I rather get confused as to why people aren’t fascinated by or talk about them.

Of course sometimes people need to be in the right mindset in order talk about these kinds of things; sometimes a person would have otherwise been interested in and open to these subjects, but is distracted by other stuff going on in their life at the current moment.

 

[The Pandector]

I hear that! It has confused me since childhood that the two most important topics in life are forbidden topics: how man relates to man, and how man relates to God. Politics and religion are off the table and out the door!

 

[Wolfsage]

only be available to those who will genuinely repent and believe.

That's how it works anyway.

I have met so many Catholics (not all) who just don’t care,

Just a friendly reminder. Be careful about assuming things like this. And pray for those people.

and I am far, very far from the kind of Catholic I want to be.

Catholic or christain? Or is there a difference? To be a better Christian get closer to God by reading the Bible and developing a strong personal relationship with him. And remember none of us are perfect just forgiven if we choose to be.

 

[Greatshield17]

So, if you don’t mind me asking @The Pandector what kind of Theological mysteries or understandings fascinate you?

 

[Greatshield17]

Just a friendly reminder. Be careful about assuming things like this. And pray for those people.

Yeah, I’m well aware of and have been practicing that. But I keep seeing it happen again and again with a lot of these people; again not all, I have seen a fair amount of Catholics that seem quite devout and faithful, and there are plenty of others that deserve the benefit of a doubt.

I will pray for them.

Catholic or christain? Or is there a difference? To be a better Christian get closer to God by reading the Bible and developing a strong personal relationship with him. And remember none of us are perfect just forgiven if we choose to be.

It’s a bit of more complex and controversial topic than that, but generally yes.

 

[William Weiler]

Kind of along story, but it didn't start that way. I saw Jesus of Montreal, I think in 1987. I ran out and the next day I had my organ donor card. I didn't really understand it then, but it was my chance to be like Christ. By donating my eyes I could help the blind to see.
I met someone with rock solid faith in my group home in 1989 and following him everywhere. He would tell me his crisis of faith at times. I kept running into him too. I fell in with some young Christians and met some of the most Christ-like young people, I have never met people like them since. I went to a Church and they told I had to accept things I didn't and I left, but no animosity at all. I went to a mega church with a band, really good guitarist. The play about the fall was Broadway good. The were was so much intense feeling, but no real Christianity, like were is the striving? the passion to be like Christ? Then I took some Bible courses and then a lot of history and that was it. I know where the idea of Satan came from and how it evolved. Where the idea of the trinity came from, and the Nicene council. I ended up seeing the Bible as literature (great pedantic literature though). I still talk about the story of the fall and how awesome it is. My belief in Christ is now the idea, that the man (sorry) Christ embodied. I used to love it, now it moves me to tears with it's beauty. I didn't have a plan, just kind of doing this and that. My God is actually from when I was 7yrs. People here no doubt relate. I was laying on grass on a summer night looking at the sky. I heard the Universe being infinite and tried to image it. I became overwhelmed, and had a conviction of God as the one who understands. Not like thunderbolts or falling to my knees or anything. It is still my God today. I doubt I could change it if I wanted to.

 

[Wolfsage]

Kind of along story, but it didn't start that way. I saw Jesus of Montreal, I think in 1987. I ran out and the next day I had my organ donor card. I didn't really understand it then, but it was my chance to be like Christ. By donating my eyes I could help the blind to see.
I met someone with rock solid faith in my group home in 1989 and following him everywhere. He would tell me his crisis of faith at times. I kept running into him too. I fell in with some young Christians and met some of the most Christ-like young people, I have never met people like them since. I went to a Church and they told I had to accept things I didn't and I left, but no animosity at all. I went to a mega church with a band, really good guitarist. The play about the fall was Broadway good. The were was so much intense feeling, but no real Christianity, like were is the striving? the passion to be like Christ? Then I took some Bible courses and then a lot of history and that was it. I know where the idea of Satan came from and how it evolved. Where the idea of the trinity came from, and the Nicene council. I ended up seeing the Bible as literature (great pedantic literature though). I still talk about the story of the fall and how awesome it is. My belief in Christ is now the idea, that the man (sorry) Christ embodied. I used to love it, now it moves me to tears with it's beauty. I didn't have a plan, just kind of doing this and that. My God is actually from when I was 7yrs. People here no doubt relate. I was laying on grass on a summer night looking at the sky. I heard the Universe being infinite and tried to image it. I became overwhelmed, and had a conviction of God as the one who understands. Not like thunderbolts or falling to my knees or anything. It is still my God today. I doubt I could change it if I wanted to.

Mind if I ask a question? Which would you say in your opinion was harder to create. The universe or us?

 

[William Weiler]

From a scientific point of view, God can do a big bang, or create a universe from nothing (not what big bang technically is though). he likely made quite a few, and maybe some before that. He can make a black hole with the mass of a billion suns. He did not consult me first, and he hasn't done what I wanted him too. (hey, I prayed!) There is a difference between him and me. I can make a fruit salad. Somehow I don't think that impresses him much.

If you really want to blow your mind, God can't have a gender. It's a ridiculous idea. Look at evolution, sexual reproduction and the differentiation of the sexes. Mutation is pretty good, but mixing DNA this way is better for variation. The one with eggs is female. Sticklebacks can switch if too many of one sex. Dissect a frog and you can find out. Otherwise you have to wait until spring and bring a flashlight.

Our father is your Dad. Our mother is your Mom. It is a relationship.

Even worse, God is a belief, science is fact. I can show you facts, I can't show you beliefs. I can show the positive effect on my life and peace of mind, but I can never prove or disapprove God. Too many people have tried. It is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Greatshield17]

My God is actually from when I was 7yrs. People here no doubt relate. I was laying on grass on a summer night looking at the sky. I heard the Universe being infinite and tried to image it. I became overwhelmed, and had a conviction of God as the one who understands. Not like thunderbolts or falling to my knees or anything. It is still my God today. I doubt I could change it if I wanted to.

What are your thoughts of the Catholic Theological definition of God as the Supreme Being, that is, that God is Perfection Himself, Perfect Goodness, Perfect Truth, Perfect Power, etc.

 

[William Weiler]

It is intellectualizing. Like a waste of time, unless it is your spiritual path. It can be used for mysticism, a way of seeking. I love that stuff. I use Physics and cosmology for that. The deep unsolved mysterious of science. Not God too much, but just wonder and awe. How profound and deep and unknowable. Spiritual growth is important to understand. My truth can be someone's pain. My pain can be someone's truth. Like fear of God is really advanced, like graduate level. Not being worthy of God is like monastery level. If it feels like crap, it is either false, or much much later.

A waste of time is harsh, what I mean is no forward motion. Spirituality is not in your head. It is a felt sense and flows through your being putting you at peace. It connects you with the everything and calms your emotions. Saying it is irrational is crazy, as if anyone does anything rational. If I don't chose to want vanilla ice cream, then is getting vanilla ice cream freedom? if I destroy the quality of my life by staying in my head and never feeling or loving anyone, is that somehow a victory? Just the nutty stuff we tell ourselves, that somehow we are rational and choosing. Then stop wanting a relationship. I can't.

 

[Wolfsage]

Spirituality is not in your head. It is a felt sense and flows through your being putting you at peace. It connects you with the everything and calms your emotions.

Let me tell you a story. I have a friend who is very old. Known him since before I could speak. We have the connection you describe. Speak to each other without uttering a word. Threw feelings and impressions that's how we communicate. I knew him before the faith. And I still know him now. Science will never explain our connection and can never tell me how it is possible. I simple know and he simple is. The closest I ever felt to our connection is diving under water. The communication is similar.

Even worse, God is a belief, science is fact. I can show you facts, I can't show you beliefs.

Yes you can. Any science you care to mention. Began because someone believe d it existed. Galileo is a good example of this.

If you really want to blow your mind, God can't have a gender.

I can do you one better. In Revelations it mentions their being seven spirits of God.

 

[William Weiler]

Wolfsage - touche

 

[William Weiler]

Home Sapiens evolved maybe 100-200k years ago. Our species strength is social, and our brains for communication. We get lonely because your brain wants you with people. Bear don't get lonely. There adapted to that, we adapted to something else. Best way to put it, no fur, no fangs, no antlers, no claws, we are tasty little treats. You need other people with spears, like maybe you should hurry.

I wonder if religion is our intelligence subverting our egoic nature. We were miserable and just figured this out. Or spirituality is us amping up our experience of nature, a survival value adaptation. Could there be survival value to believing in God and the afterlife to help with our self awareness of our own death, a side effect of this brain?