Central coherence?

[danjustlovescoffee]

Do you think that people with ASD can have both a good and a weak central coherence depending on the situation and the strategies one have learned to use?
Do some of us have a gestalt perpection rather than a weak central coherence?
Are some of us people with both pattern seeking and weak central coherence?
What do you think?

 

[iamlindsaythatisall]

I think all of those are possible, in all honesty. We've already found that the ASD spectrum is a lot wider than was originally thought, and each person experiences it so differently. I know Temple Grandin mentions there are 4 types of thinking, and I do believe she's onto something:

"They are the photo realistic visual thinkers who think the way I do, math/pattern thinkers and word thinkers." (from her website).

And I believe each type has its own spectrum, as well. I think it goes much, much deeper.

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

I think all of those are possible, in all honesty. We've already found that the ASD spectrum is a lot wider than was originally thought, and each person experiences it so differently. I know Temple Grandin mentions there are 4 types of thinking, and I do believe she's onto something:

"They are the photo realistic visual thinkers who think the way I do, math/pattern thinkers and word thinkers." (from her website).

And I believe each type has its own spectrum, as well. I think it goes much, much deeper.

I don't really think Grandin can be trusted that much. My personal thinking is that music and word thinkers can be the same.
A singer muat be good with both words and music, right?

 

[iamlindsaythatisall]

I don't really think Grandin can be trusted that much. My personal thinking is that music and word thinkers can be the same.
A singer muat be good with both words and music, right?

I don't necessarily think she's 100% correct, but I think she's on the right track... if that makes any sense. Again, I think it goes a lot deeper than even what she says.

 

[Judge]

My personal thinking is that music and word thinkers can be the same.

A singer must be good with both words and music, right?

Yes and no. Depending on the context of both speech and song.

For some, speaking poorly can be mutually exclusive to an ability to sing professionally. A dichotomy that artists like Carly Simon, B.B. King, Bill Withers, Nancy Wilson and Mel Tillis can all attest to. Where rote memory guides one through a song compared to stuttered speech that struggles with real-time "word retrieval".

Singing and Stuttering: What We Know

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

Yes and no. Depending on the context of both speech and song.

For some, speaking poorly can be mutually exclusive to an ability to sing professionally. A dichotomy that artists like Carly Simon, B.B. King, Bill Withers, Nancy Wilson and Mel Tillis can all attest to. Where rote memory guides one through a song compared to stuttered speech that struggles with real-time "word retrieval".

Singing and Stuttering: What We Know

I was referring to people who use words. A singer often sing with words. Even if a singer would have issues with stuttering one thing is true: people with stuttering are good with words but have difficulties when they speak.
It would be very interesting to meet a person who is bad with words but can sing a full operetta. Most people I know who sing are very good with words. This is the reason why I don't trust Grandin. I am good with words but that doesn't mean that I am not good with music. I am good at both and I see a connection.
"There is now evidence that the brain functions differently for singing than it does for talking."
Well, even if that's true I have to say that being good with words is not about how good you are at expressing them in a physical way. Then I need to say that for me speaking and singing are very connected and my teacher (an opera singer and a speech therapist) who help me sing and speak told me it is important to see how the two are similar and not similar .
But what does this have to do with weak and strong central coherence?

 

[Judge]

I was referring to people who use words. A singer often sing with words.

A singer must be good with both words and music, right?

Must they? Like I said, it all depends on context.

The difference between word retrieval and memory. That a singer may be good with music, but not necessarily words...at least in this context. Conversely there's no reason why someone who stutters cannot be good at creating lyrics.

Whether it fits your narrative or not. That's all...

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

Must they? Like I said, it all depends on context.

The difference between word retrieval and memory. That a singer may be good with music, but not necessarily words...at least in this context. Conversely there's no reason why someone who stutters cannot be good at creating lyrics.

Whether it fits your narrative or not. That's all...

Sure, a singer can just learn how to sing the words without any understanding. I was only referring to the fact that I am not sure that a person can't have both be "music and math thinkers" and "verbal logical thinkers" at the same time.
and what does this have to do with weak and strong central coherence?

 

[Judge]

and what does this have to do with weak and strong central coherence?

A singer muat be good with both words and music, right?

I merely addressed your own quote. Nothing more, nothing less.

I suppose you could get into the concept of left-right brain lateralization as well...though for some that's an issue that has been debunked in whole or in part. That functions like speech and artistry may be drawn from different hemispheres of the brain. Considerations which could potentially impact central coherence.

 

[Hypnalis]

I just read this: Weak central coherence theory - Wikipedia.
It doesn't doesn't apply to me.

It seems more like a theory made up by an "outsider", trying to apply concepts they already had in an inappropriate context. But it's hard to disprove, so the theory is still around.

FWIW my personal process for establishing and updating my "big picture" is unlike an NT's.
That suggests the "Central Coherence" concept may have some value for people on the spectrum, but IMO the information in the wikipedia article indicates suggests it's more likely to be a possible symptom than a root cause.

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

I just read this: Weak central coherence theory - Wikipedia.
It doesn't doesn't apply to me.

It seems more like a theory made up by an "outsider", trying to apply concepts they already had in an inappropriate context. But it's hard to disprove, so the theory is still around.

FWIW my personal process for establishing and updating my "big picture" is unlike an NT's.
That suggests the "Central Coherence" concept may have some value for people on the spectrum, but IMO the information in the wikipedia article indicates suggests it's more likely to be a possible symptom than a root cause.

Are you saying that there many different "big pictures"?

"There are differences in the kinds of ‘big picture’ here obviously. One refers to systems and the others, of the kind that Frith and Happe automatically assumed to be universal, have an essential social element. It should be reasonably clear from Simon Baron Cohen’s work, that those who are exceptionally good at systematising really cannot have a significant deficit in finding the big picture at least as far as systems go. " A Touch of Alyricism: the A Muse: Part 1 The Drive for Central Coherence

 

[Tom]

I probably would be described as a very focused, detail orientated person. But I think in my case it is by choice more then by hard-wired limitation. To use a well known example, I see the forest all right, but it's much easier for me to deal with things one tree at a time.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I think all of those are possible, in all honesty. We've already found that the ASD spectrum is a lot wider than was originally thought, and each person experiences it so differently. I know Temple Grandin mentions there are 4 types of thinking, and I do believe she's onto something:

"They are the photo realistic visual thinkers who think the way I do, math/pattern thinkers and word thinkers." (from her website).

And I believe each type has its own spectrum, as well. I think it goes much, much deeper.

Probably partially true, could fall in the same trap as the Myers Briggs, types blur into each other.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I think all of those are possible, in all honesty. We've already found that the ASD spectrum is a lot wider than was originally thought, and each person experiences it so differently. I know Temple Grandin mentions there are 4 types of thinking, and I do believe she's onto something:

"They are the photo realistic visual thinkers who think the way I do, math/pattern thinkers and word thinkers." (from her website).

And I believe each type has its own spectrum, as well. I think it goes much, much deeper.

I am a very strong visual thinker. always translating the visual world into the world of words. and mathematical symbols.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Central coherence, at least in my experience, is a developed skill. I would suggest that even most young neurotypical people have this issue of a weak central coherence,...get into a discussion with a typical teenager if you don't think so. Furthermore, as an autistic, who has now become self-aware of perspective, context, and of central coherence,...my skills have become much better.

I struggled for most of my life simply being unaware. I've said and did things,...thought things,...that now,...I am ashamed of,...but at the time, had no clue.

 

[Fino]

I've been told all my life that I'm missing the bigger picture and various variations of that.

 

[Suzette]

I don't really think Grandin can be trusted that much. My personal thinking is that music and word thinkers can be the same.
A singer muat be good with both words and music, right?

Being able to string words together isn't the same as being "good with words". You speak, are you a poet simply because you can recite poetry?

But the better answer is that few people only operate through one expression. No matter who we are we are not one dimensional. What I think Dr. Grandin is getting at is that most of us have a strong preference for one type of thinking, even though we are capable of applying other forms of thought when needed.

 

[Suzette]

I've been told all my life that I'm missing the bigger picture and various variations of that.

Until recently I thought I had a pretty good handle on "the bigger picture" in most things. But then I realized I often miss sarcasim unless it is delivered with an exaggerated tone or eye rolls. Suddenly I questioning what else I don't know! How much do I not see? And I am starting to think I am a lot less smart than I thought. I knew I wasn't really bright, but I sm starting to think I am actually below average. (Seriously) It's a good thing I am honest and earnest. At least I have that!)

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

Central coherence, at least in my experience, is a developed skill. I would suggest that even most young neurotypical people have this issue of a weak central coherence,...get into a discussion with a typical teenager if you don't think so. Furthermore, as an autistic, who has now become self-aware of perspective, context, and of central coherence,...my skills have become much better.

I struggled for most of my life simply being unaware. I've said and did things,...thought things,...that now,...I am ashamed of,...but at the time, had no clue.

Very interesting.
I found this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sp...ior-pitch-perception-heightened-in-autism/amp
What I heard when I read that article was: "you are not even very good at the skills that autism makes you good at!". I play and sing but I was never very good at it without a lot of training. I wasn't born with a good memory for melodies.
Why do so many studies say that "you have autism and should be good at this and bad at that!"? We should always have a weak central coherence some studies say but in reality I don't think it's true. Are studies bad? Did they just take all the peoole autism from a music school or did they have more musical training or...and so on? Never trust what you read about ASD?
Wouldnt good pitch perception make a person good at hearing prosody when people speak?

"Canadian researchers found better pitch discrimination in people with autism, but not Asperger's, although other studies have not made a distinction between different diagnoses along the autism spectrum."
Perfect Pitch: Autism's Rare Gift | Interactive Autism Network
So much of what is said aboyt ASD might not be true for people diagnosed with Asperger's?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Why do so many studies say that "you have autism and should be good at this and bad at that!"? We should always have a weak central coherence some studies say but in reality I don't think it's true. Are studies bad? Did they just take all the peoole autism from a music school or did they have more musical training or...and so on? Never trust what you read about ASD?
Wouldnt good pitch perception make a person good at hearing prosody when people speak?

Statistically speaking,..."statistics",...a sampling of a group of autistics. Now, here's the thing with reading studies,...(1) sample size (2) what/who are you sampling (ASD-1s, 2s, or 3s), (children vs adults), and so on,...and (3) what were the specific methods and conditions in which the study was conducted. In other words,...context. There can be significant differences in results between an adult with an ASD-1 level autism,...and a small child with an ASD-2 level autism.

There are a few bad studies out there, a few,....most studies require a peer-review process before publication which tends to weed those out. The main issue is context. This is why at the end of every study,...they will say "more study is needed". More studies are needed in order to establish a more reliable truth. Something may be quite true in one context,...but not another. More studies means trialing the same study under different conditions. This is why "scientists say" and "doctors recommend" can change over time,...new studies have come out with different conditions and context. This is the scientific process,...it is slow and frustrating sometimes. This is why the uneducated get frustrated and don't trust doctors and scientists,...they don't understand the scientific process and that things will change with new information over time.

So, as to your concerns,...the science and the studies may be good,...but look into the details. I've never, ever in my 35 years in medicine have I read any study that concluded "100% of the time", this or that happened,...it's always presented in a statistical manner.

Pitch perception is a different area of the brain than hearing prosody,...hearing prosody requires further processing through all the "social and communication" centers in the brain. I've seen nationally televised talent shows where a person with an ASD-2 or ASD-3 level autism sang and played the piano like an angel,...then stood up with the help of an assistant and could barely speak,...and when they did, it was with significantly altered vocal pitch. Different areas of the brain.