Black & White thinking

[Skids]

One of the key aspects in my life as an adult on the spectrum is that of black and white thinking. Having such a rigid style of thinking about things has caused much stress and arguments for me during my teenage and now adult life. I've just turned 40.

Black and white thinking makes perfect common sense to me yet NT's always seem to think they know best and proceed to spend lots and lots of time studying the grey areas in between whilst in the meantime nothing ever gets done or is addressed.

Some examples.

When the London Olympics were held back in 2012 at a cost of approximately 8.77 BILLION pounds I must have been the only person in the country who thought that it was a disgrace.

If I was the Prime Minister at the time and someone asked me whether I wanted to spend 8.77 billion pounds of taxpayers money so we could all watch a few men and women chucking a few javelins for a few weeks or alternatively spend that money on where it is most needed as a matter of priority then surely it's black and white isn't it?

There is no debate to be had. You have homeless people, people accessing food banks, people in hospital corridors etc etc and the prime minister at the time David Cameron, with all his public schoolboy education and Oxford education decided that it was better to spend that money on some blokes in leotards running about a bit.

I cannot understand how this decision was humanly possible to reach.

Another example.

Mitigating circumstances in crimes. IMO there are none. If I had a drugs problem and get caught burgling a house to get money to buy drugs then obviously it's a sad state of affairs and help is needed but I broke in and therefore I must accept the penalty. The reason why I committed a crime shouldn't matter but only that the crime was committed and that I must accept the penalty for committing that crime. It's black and white. Commit the crime and do the time is an old phrase but it's common sense.

You can't turn up to court crying your eyes out and blaming the fact that you burnt someone's house down due to being distressed by the recent death of a pet rabbit. Grey areas are just excuses.

Other examples are people who park in places they aren't supposed to that are clearly signposted with warnings and when they return 5 minutes later and realise they have a parking ticket they start kicking off at the traffic warden saying, "I was only a few minutes guv - give me a break!". What do these people expect?! If it says don't park there then don't do it!

Just a few examples of black and white thinking there but my life is dominated by it. Every view I have on just about everything is black and white and to me logical but to others I come across as extreme or stubborn. I just think if the world was full of black and white thinkers then things would get done that are fair to all, everyone would know the rules and know there is no leniency and the world would be a much more fairer and more accountable place.

Just another thing. I have had CBT and read through plenty of books on the subject and although I am much more aware of how thinking patterns and styles can leave you trapped and stuck, I don't think it's helpful for mental health professionals to dismiss black and white thinking as maladaptive and of no benefit.

I live my life by it and everyone knows where they stand with me. The problem is that others don't and that causes conflict and disputes. Why does it have to be the minority, the autistic view that is seen as the wrong one? What if we are right with some of our views and the NT's are wrong?

I get all this advice from professionals usually trying to change my behaviour and patterns of thinking so I am able to fit in better but what if I am right all long and they are wrong? Where is the proof? Is it just because their views make more sense to more people (who are all NT anyway) and by that logic that if you are in the minority and hold patterns of thinking that harm nobody and seek to solve issues fairly and quickly based on a rigid moral code then you will be considered wrong and have to change.

 

[OkRad]

I agree 100%. It is considered wrong, but is it?? We think black and white about things, but so do NTs. THey think very black and white about US!!!!! They do NOT look at us in shades of grey. They spout off a lot of bs but never do it themselves.

Black and white thinking helps people stay on course. Who was ever succesful that did not do that? Caesar sure thought black and white. So did Augustus, and Cicero and so many others.................

If you want to be mediocre live like an NT.

 

[Bolletje]

I don't think you necessarily represent the autistic view. I'm quite capable of viewing the gray area as well and viewing problems from different angles.
And I think what the professionals are trying to get at, is that being right is not necessarily the greatest good, nor is it healthy to make that your end goal. It might be, for some people, but constantly trying to convince others of how right you are is a great way to alienate people. It's this turn of phrase of yours that sort of bothers me:

There is no debate to be had. (...) I cannot understand how this decision was humanly possible to reach.

Feel free to correct me if I misinterpret you, but here goes: you admit that you cannot possibly understand how anyone could have a different opinion than the one you have, because your reasoning is the only right one.
Do you see how offensive that can be to others? By stating that there is no debate to be had, you are effectively discounting any opinions anyone else might have, sabotaging any possibility of a dialogue.

 

[pjcnet]

I agree with your examples of things that could be considered black or white, for instance punishments should be the same for drug addicts who commit crime because punishments are also used to prevent crime from happening in the first place. If people think it's more acceptable to commit crime if they're on illegal drugs and they'll get a light sentence (or even in some cases just help, E.g. given a Community Rehabilitation Order without any additional punishment) it will happen more often and some criminals could even be more encouraged to use drugs, it probably already happens (I say this as an ex heroin and crack addict who has been clean for over 12 years). I also agree with your views on the Olympics and I'd debate it further if this was added to the politics forum separately.

Some things aren't always black or white however, for instance what if a person on the autistic spectrum got arrested for breach of the peace while having a meltdown? He or she could still have been causing a public disturbance that could have been thought of as totally unacceptable behaviour by NTs with no understanding. Or what if someone on the autistic spectrum was arrested after getting involved with people who got them to use their special interest to help them commit a crime (E.g. computer skills) when it's argued that the autistic person was vulnerable, taken advantage of and truly didn't understand that any crime was being committed while to a normal NT person it would probably be considered obvious? Things not being just black or white aren't just related to crime, they're often related to many aspects of life too.

 

[Tcx]

My elders always try to fix my black-and-white thinking on every topic so I tend to figure out answers the more the better and it confuses me a lot.
For example, smoking.
Smoking definitely hurts our and others' lung and the way it works is pretty much similar to drugs, it causes addiction. Even after arguing with elders I do still think it's harmful and addictive to everyone so it should be permanently banned from earth.
But my elders told me: 1. lots of people included them need cigarette to release their anxiety
2. if you don't smoke in some situation you won't be able to enter a commercial social circle
3. cigarette makes juicy profit and is charged huge tax
4. smokers included my elders won't care if they might cause others lung cancer or not, even apparently possible
5. quite a few smokers don't get lung cancer
My black-and-white logic/rule is: if something's bad(lots of proving), they should be banned
They tell me everything can be explained from several aspects such as politics, commercial, religion and so on and not all positive stuff would be accepted/promoted. A game master hired from company would ban hackers and also be one of those RMT sellers(that is their work, assigned by company).

Ugh...I'm still confused, literally.

 

[Skids]

@Bolletje. You make some great points and i certainly didn't wish to come across as offensive or that my view represents all autistic people so for that i apologise. I probably didn't get my point across as concisely and accurately as i could. I have always had this issue with strong opinions and a sense of being right and I am always looking at ways to tone it down a little because it can annoy others. I accept that it does alienate others as you rightly say, however I find it difficult to see others points of view especially when I feel like mine always are dismissed or balked at.

@pjcnet also you make an interesting point with the example you gave. Inflexible thinking maybe is a big problem for me that needs further work. It's so hard when you live life with such strong and rigid responses and views on things.

 

[Tom]

People who think and live by that concept are sometimes called Yes/No people. And they can serve useful purposes in the right functions. But they are very unsuited in others. They would not make good counselors or therapists for example.

 

[Skids]

Plastic carrier bags. In the UK we now get charged 5p or in some cases 10p if we want one for our shopping. Naturally to encourage people to use recyclable ones which is a fair point. My black and white thinking point of view is why not stop making the ones that aren't recyclable and then only exclusively have ones that are? If the reason behind charging shoppers is to protect the environment and hoping the charge will encourage shoppers to reuse recyclable bags then why not just stop worldwide production of non recyclable bags and the problem is solved overnight. Logical to me.

 

[Skids]

People who think and live by that concept are sometimes called Yes/No people. And they can serve useful purposes in the right functions. But they are very unsuited in others. They would not make good counselors or therapists for example.

Now that Tom i CAN agree with!

 

[Bolletje]

@Skids oh you did not offend me at all, I was just trying to give another viewpoint. I'm not holy either. Although I try to remain objective I occasionally have rigid responses in discussions as well. I refuse to discuss something when I feel like there is no way the other person can convince me. That's mostly when I find the opposing viewpoint prepostorous. Which is why I refuse to have conversations with (for example) creationists and flat earthers.

 

[garnetflower13]

Plastic carrier bags. In the UK we now get charged 5p or in some cases 10p if we want one for our shopping. Naturally to encourage people to use recyclable ones which is a fair point. My black and white thinking point of view is why not stop making the ones that aren't recyclable and then only exclusively have ones that are? If the reason behind charging shoppers is to protect the environment and hoping the charge will encourage shoppers to reuse recyclable bags then why not just stop worldwide production of non recyclable bags and the problem is solved overnight. Logical to me.

I agree about the bags. And yet, there is another point of view. The shops are not responsible for the production and distribution of the plastic carrier bags, so this issue would be better served being brought before those who manufacture and distribute these bags. And who knows who makes these bags? The shops simply order them. If you take the typical shop person, they are not likely to try and change how bags are offered and used. They only care about getting through their paid hours so that they can follow their own pursuits after hours.

But the sight of those bags sicken me, when I think of where they eventually end up...

 

[Skids]

So therefore if it was made illegal for all shops to dispense non recyclable bags then the shopper would either be forced to buy recyclable ones or carry the stuff home in his/her arms. After a few trips constantly having to buy recyclable ones, many of them will soon get into the habit of bringing their own which they should be doing in the first place thus helping them and helping the environment. Only we pander to people all the time.

 

[dragoncat16]

I find that NTs employ the black and white fallacy (it's actually called that in logic) much more than I do. I am always surprised to see websites and other information sources saying that people on the spectrum use black and white logic. So often I have said something to someone, and they take it right to the extreme in order to "prove" me wrong. It is very annoying and it is something I don't do but some NTs I know do that.

With regard to crimes and such, an example of a mitigating factor, in a murder, say, could be whether someone did it just because they like killing, or if they did it after years of abuse from the murder victim. Those are two very different crimes, IMO, and instead of treating them the same way, the issue would be well into the grey area when issues such as punishment, rehabilitation, and danger to society are considered.

 

[InfinityRose]

I tend to dislike black and white thinking. With a few exceptions, there are usually two (or more) sides to each story, even if you disagree with the other side. I find that in most cases when people try to implement black and white thinking, they just want to reduce an actual complex issue into something simple that they have an easy answer for.

I'm not perfect, I do this sometimes and there are a few issues I won't budge on, but generally I try to keep an open mind and listen to other perspectives.

 

[Sid Delicious]

"If I was the Prime Minister at the time and someone asked me whether I wanted to spend 8.77 billion pounds of taxpayers money so we could all watch a few men and women chucking a few javelins for a few weeks or alternatively spend that money on where it is most needed as a matter of priority then surely it's black and white isn't it?" - Ten out of ten for humaning!

 

[Esa]

One of the key aspects in my life as an adult on the spectrum is that of black and white thinking. Having such a rigid style of thinking about things has caused much stress and arguments for me during my teenage and now adult life. I've just turned 40.

Black and white thinking makes perfect common sense to me yet NT's always seem to think they know best and proceed to spend lots and lots of time studying the grey areas in between whilst in the meantime nothing ever gets done or is addressed.

Some examples.

When the London Olympics were held back in 2012 at a cost of approximately 8.77 BILLION pounds I must have been the only person in the country who thought that it was a disgrace.

If I was the Prime Minister at the time and someone asked me whether I wanted to spend 8.77 billion pounds of taxpayers money so we could all watch a few men and women chucking a few javelins for a few weeks or alternatively spend that money on where it is most needed as a matter of priority then surely it's black and white isn't it?

There is no debate to be had. You have homeless people, people accessing food banks, people in hospital corridors etc etc and the prime minister at the time David Cameron, with all his public schoolboy education and Oxford education decided that it was better to spend that money on some blokes in leotards running about a bit.

I cannot understand how this decision was humanly possible to reach.

Another example.

Mitigating circumstances in crimes. IMO there are none. If I had a drugs problem and get caught burgling a house to get money to buy drugs then obviously it's a sad state of affairs and help is needed but I broke in and therefore I must accept the penalty. The reason why I committed a crime shouldn't matter but only that the crime was committed and that I must accept the penalty for committing that crime. It's black and white. Commit the crime and do the time is an old phrase but it's common sense.

You can't turn up to court crying your eyes out and blaming the fact that you burnt someone's house down due to being distressed by the recent death of a pet rabbit. Grey areas are just excuses.

Other examples are people who park in places they aren't supposed to that are clearly signposted with warnings and when they return 5 minutes later and realise they have a parking ticket they start kicking off at the traffic warden saying, "I was only a few minutes guv - give me a break!". What do these people expect?! If it says don't park there then don't do it!

Just a few examples of black and white thinking there but my life is dominated by it. Every view I have on just about everything is black and white and to me logical but to others I come across as extreme or stubborn. I just think if the world was full of black and white thinkers then things would get done that are fair to all, everyone would know the rules and know there is no leniency and the world would be a much more fairer and more accountable place.

Just another thing. I have had CBT and read through plenty of books on the subject and although I am much more aware of how thinking patterns and styles can leave you trapped and stuck, I don't think it's helpful for mental health professionals to dismiss black and white thinking as maladaptive and of no benefit.

I live my life by it and everyone knows where they stand with me. The problem is that others don't and that causes conflict and disputes. Why does it have to be the minority, the autistic view that is seen as the wrong one? What if we are right with some of our views and the NT's are wrong?

I get all this advice from professionals usually trying to change my behaviour and patterns of thinking so I am able to fit in better but what if I am right all long and they are wrong? Where is the proof? Is it just because their views make more sense to more people (who are all NT anyway) and by that logic that if you are in the minority and hold patterns of thinking that harm nobody and seek to solve issues fairly and quickly based on a rigid moral code then you will be considered wrong and have to change.

I agree - mostly. But I do believe that there are grey areas, too.

 

[Flinty]

I agree about the bags. And yet, there is another point of view. The shops are not responsible for the production and distribution of the plastic carrier bags, so this issue would be better served being brought before those who manufacture and distribute these bags. And who knows who makes these bags? The shops simply order them. If you take the typical shop person, they are not likely to try and change how bags are offered and used. They only care about getting through their paid hours so that they can follow their own pursuits after hours.

But the sight of those bags sicken me, when I think of where they eventually end up...

Here is the gray...

I reuse the plastic shopping bags. That way, I don't have to buy garbage bags.

Think of who the main beneficiary of banning plastic shopping bags actually is...

 

[Ylva]

The way I see it, a statement is either true or it is not. If it falls within the "grey" then it is not. BUT, the greys are worth exploring. You can think about the nuanced statements. It's less interesting to contemplate hard facts.

I find that NTs employ the black and white fallacy (it's actually called that in logic) much more than I do. I am always surprised to see websites and other information sources saying that people on the spectrum use black and white logic. So often I have said something to someone, and they take it right to the extreme in order to "prove" me wrong. It is very annoying and it is something I don't do but some NTs I know do that.

With regard to crimes and such, an example of a mitigating factor, in a murder, say, could be whether someone did it just because they like killing, or if they did it after years of abuse from the murder victim. Those are two very different crimes, IMO, and instead of treating them the same way, the issue would be well into the grey area when issues such as punishment, rehabilitation, and danger to society are considered.

NTs project a lot more than they are willing to admit. I had a therapist who was trying to use my stereotypical logic against me to try and convince me that my anxiety was irrational, so she asked me how many percent of the people I met did I estimate would wish me harm. I said about 5%. She said that's not a lot. I said it's one in twenty.

That sort of thing happens a lot.

 

[Mathalamus]

i tend to think in black and white terms, especially with things that ARE, or should be, black and white, and no shades of grey. people have tried, and so have i, but the fact remains that some things will, should, or are a simple black and white issue.

 

[Esa]

i tend to think in black and white terms, especially with things that ARE, or should be, black and white, and no shades of grey. people have tried, and so have i, but the fact remains that some things will, should, or are a simple black and white issue.

true. some things.