Behave: Chapters 1-5

[Fino]

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, we're reading this book:

Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst by Robert M. Sapolsky

And we are now discussing the first five chapters of it.

I'll start by pointing out something right near the beginning of chapter one which I found fascinating:

"Such third-party aggression is ubiquitous--shock a rat and it's likely to bite the smaller guy nearby; a beta-ranking male baboon loses a fight to the alpha, and he chases the omega male . . . I've observed a remarkable example of this among the baboons . . . what I believe warrants the seemingly human-specific term 'rape' . . . and each of these instances has been the act of the former alpha male in the hours after he has been toppled from his position."
-page 17

Although some of this includes what we tend to know intuitively, that the abused often abuse, that people feel the need to reassert lost dominance, etc., when it's explained in this specific, real-life sort of way, it gives it a different perspective, in my opinion, and it may explain things that have happened in my own life.

 

[menander]

Intriguing. But what I have seen (anecdotal, I know) is that those abused are so sensitive they don't abuse.They lose control or melt down but abuse is systematic. Those who are abused tend to die in one way or another. It is not always physical death, but it will kill people, who they are and who they were. I bet that baboon, after his little tirade, goes off and dies somewhere.

 

[Aspychata]

Think those that are abused can become more understanding. l think those that are abused are able to spot abusers and relationships where that is the social dynamic.

 

[sidd851]

Interestingly, the "warrior-gene", (a misnomer, to be certain) has different alleles.

In those with an MAOA-L version, the L stands for low activity, indicating, among other things, the reduced capacity to re-uptake serotonin.

The MAOA-H version indicates high (serotonin) re-uptake activity.

It has been found that those with the "L" version of this gene, when exposed to trauma in childhood, become prone to violence as adults.
IE: "Abused becomes abuser"

However, far more interestingly, it has been found that those with the "H" variant, when exposed to trauma in childhood, become resistant to violence as adults.
For this group, individuals are effectively innoculated against the predisposition for violence.

Epigenetics is fascinating.
"Nature" loads the gun, "Nurture" pulls the trigger.

 

[menander]

Interestingly, the "warrior-gene", (a misnomer, to be certain) has different alleles.

In those with an MAOA-L version, the L stands for low activity, indicating, among other things, the reduced capacity to re-uptake serotonin.

The MAOA-H version indicates high (serotonin) re-uptake activity.

It has been found that those with the "L" version of this gene, when exposed to trauma in childhood, become prone to violence as adults.
IE: "Abused becomes abuser"

However, far more interestingly, it has been found that those with the "H" variant, when exposed to trauma in childhood, become resistant to violence as adults.
For this group, individuals are effectively innoculated against the predisposition for violence.

Epigenetics is fascinating.
"Nature" loads the gun, "Nurture" pulls the trigger.

What I find most fascinating are people who have genes which indicate they "should" have certain traits like anger, rage, etc-----and yet don't. I am particularly interested in those who recognize a certain deleterious trait and fight it. The Human Will. It is what separates us from animals.

 

[Gracey]

What I find most fascinating are people who have genes which indicate they "should" have certain traits like anger, rage, etc-----and yet don't. I am particularly interested in those who recognize a certain deleterious trait and fight it. The Human Will. It is what separates us from animals.

It could be said that "will" you mentioned is epigenetically nurtured.

We each have it bone deep in our biology,
nurture brings it to the fore.
We express will, and will continue to choose to express 'will' above all else in our hereditary genetic stash,
because it works for us.

 

[Aspychata]

But if we go back to primitive times, survival of the what? Most aggressive, smartest, healthiest??? We are shaped by evolution, genetic makeup and our environment. And how is instant gratification rewiring our neural pathways due to social media?

 

[menander]

But if we go back to primitive times, survival of the what? Most aggressive, smartest, healthiest??? We are shaped by evolution, genetic makeup and our environment. And how is instant gratification rewiring our neural pathways due to social media?

Great questions. Exactly! In other words, to what does our will even aspire? In various places in various time, will produced different outcomes. In the ancient world- power, domination, fighting and falling, courage in battle were much more important that laying up enough money to retire in some far flung province. That would be quite cowardly.

Then, moving on to perhaps the Christian era- to love and enemy would have taken a tremendous amount of will or to live poor, chaste and obedient. During wars---imagine the early wars like the US Rev War, the will to stand in the front line with cannons firing at you, men dropping left and right. Watch a movie like the Patriot to see more. How did the Human Will overcome the base fear? It must have been the social connections. You do it because the man net to you does it.

But what do we want now? Is will now reduced to losing 10 pounds? Getting a 10,000 subscribers? Getting a millions dollars? What is the ultimate goals of steel will now?

 

[Moonhart44]

i think about that a lot because i have tendency to lash out. as a person who is a prey to many people, i am self-aware in that i have that deep desire to dominate and feel that power, but also knowing those who i want dominate are even that much more vunerable, and i can't repeat the cycle.i just have probem transferring that energy out of me in a healthy way. so i kind of internalize it and become depressed

 

[Fino]

Another point I found interesting, I think it was in chapter two, where it was explained that men actually receive more dopamine from seeing something sexually stimulating than women do. So it makes sense for men to be more interested in sex! Of course, this doesn't apply to me at all.

 

[Gracey]

Great questions. Exactly! In other words, to what does our will even aspire? In various places in various time, will produced different outcomes. In the ancient world- power, domination, fighting and falling, courage in battle were much more important that laying up enough money to retire in some far flung province. That would be quite cowardly.

Then, moving on to perhaps the Christian era- to love and enemy would have taken a tremendous amount of will or to live poor, chaste and obedient. During wars---imagine the early wars like the US Rev War, the will to stand in the front line with cannons firing at you, men dropping left and right. Watch a movie like the Patriot to see more. How did the Human Will overcome the base fear? It must have been the social connections. You do it because the man net to you does it.

But what do we want now? Is will now reduced to losing 10 pounds? Getting a 10,000 subscribers? Getting a millions dollars? What is the ultimate goals of steel will now?

The will to survive
Determined by ones own ideals of what 'survival' means.

Ask the chronically depressed, ask a soldier, ask the affluent, ask the homeless, ask a cancer patient receiving treatment, ask the baboon

I think each have a bone deep will to survive.

 

[Aspychata]

Chap 4 , pg 105 - Rise in testosterone after a challenge makes aggression more likely. So when the crowd let out after a huge rugby match in England, there were young guys scaling lamposts, shouting, and being extremely aggressive on my first day in England. Almost riot like. The third paragraph points out this in particpation in sports competition. l feel this increase occurs even at the spectator level. Maybe this happens also in *mob behavior *.

 

[onlything]

This book allows the reader to put many things into perspective. It's quite amazing, really.

"Such third-party aggression is ubiquitous--shock a rat and it's likely to bite the smaller guy nearby; a beta-ranking male baboon loses a fight to the alpha, and he chases the omega male . . . I've observed a remarkable example of this among the baboons . . . what I believe warrants the seemingly human-specific term 'rape' . . . and each of these instances has been the act of the former alpha male in the hours after he has been toppled from his position."
-page 17

It reminds of some psychology things I read before on bullying - where, in most if not all cases, it doesn't come from nowhere and tends to be release pent up aggression, as well as ascertain one's social position at the same time. It also shows that, despite people debating on it and often claiming otherwise, humans are simply evolved animals and have little superiority towards other species outside the fact of our evolution. It's kind of amusing, really - that we can be, at times, as petty as a so often looked down on baboon... It makes one wonder if human arrogance and superiority above other species are even warranted. If we are so similar, at the end of the day, then indeed 'why a dream of a crow should be worth less than a human's"? (Can someone remember where was it from?)

 

[onlything]

And how is instant gratification rewiring our neural pathways due to social media?

I may be wrong here, but aren't we wired towards instant gratification from the get go? I mean, this is what ensured ours (and other species') survival - at least from my understanding of the dopamine part of Chapter 2. Of course, social media and, in general, the sheer consumption our world drowns currently in don't help - but video games, junk food etc wouldn't work half as well if we were wired towards long-term goals/benefit - it is our frontal cortex that allows us now to do it, the most recently evolved part and quite unique in its built in humans, no? At least that was my understanding, but then, English is not my first language, so I may have missed some nuances.

Yet, if we think about junk food, for example - in the hunting/gathering times the more calories there were, the better it was. Now, not necessarily, but to our primitive part of the brain, calories = good. A lot of calories, easily gotten, in a short amount of time - even better. Plus the taste - and we get the craving. The more we have it, the more we want. We get addicted to certain substances too - like sugar, caffeine or cheese (and isn't the last one surprising - it seems that caseine that is found in dairy products can trigger the brain's opioid receptions - the same, it seems, that are triggered by morfine and similar substances - that's crazy!).

Anyway, I digress. What I mean is: if we were wired more towards long-term gratification, then we would instinctively understand the danger of unhealthy diet - and yet we need so much scientific proof and willpower to ensure a healthy diet for ourselves.

Social media is awful though, that's true. And adverts. Always shouting, bombarding our brains with information until our emotional regulation and focus are completely gone. We've gotten used to being distracted by something at all times - and then, is it so strange that we're always tired if we never let our brains rest?

 

[Aspychata]

Sometimes l just don't want to deal with stores, so l have tried salads from drive thru places. It's not instant gratification, it's avoidance of people for me.

 

[onlything]

In the ancient world- power, domination, fighting and falling, courage in battle were much more important that laying up enough money to retire in some far flung province. That would be quite cowardly.

Then, moving on to perhaps the Christian era- to love and enemy would have taken a tremendous amount of will or to live poor, chaste and obedient. During wars---imagine the early wars like the US Rev War, the will to stand in the front line with cannons firing at you, men dropping left and right. Watch a movie like the Patriot to see more. How did the Human Will overcome the base fear? It must have been the social connections. You do it because the man net to you does it.

You seem to be romanticising these times quite a bit, actually. Yes, there were amazing characters throughout the history - but so were the awful ones. Humans haven't changed that much. In ancient (and not so ancient) times - thousands of slaves kept to ascertain fortune of the few in power, early Christians murdered for petty entertainment on the arenas. Later, in the era of Christianity (and not only) - wars organised for sake of conquering 'the unbelievers' (most often due to their riches). World exploration - ending in murder of so many natives due to greed. Early wars? And why were they organised? Domination over the weak works in the same way that cyber-bullying today does, simply on a larger scale - it creates a shot of good feeling to have power over someone while you feel you have none of yours.

There were good people, just like there were evil ones. There were also simple people that just minded their own business and didn't make waves. Just like now. If you look around, you'll still find inspiring people - those fighting for equality of minorities, those working in poor areas, healing or building, or designing, those speaking up about climate change and protection of the week in the war-torn countries - you simply have to look around. In the country I am in now, for example, there is an uproar concerning the LGBT community. The government and most people started a campaign against them and showed so much cruelty and unreasonable hatred that it's simply shocking. No adoption by LGBT pairs as it is in many other countries, bah, not even homosexual marriage - because 'it's unnatural and different'. And yet, there are still individuals willing to understand - not being LGBT, yet speaking up for them - fighting in the only way allowed in these times.

What about volunteers working in animal rescue? What about doctors deciding to go to dangerous regions to heal in poor conditions? What about architects travelling between slums of different countries, voluntarily constructing structures to ensure a greater well-being of the people? What about teachers working in schools in awful-awful conditions? What of nature reserves? Of charities?

What I mean to say - the will you speak of still exists. However, it is the person's choice if they decide to implement it in a meaningful way and for every person that does so, there are many more that won't - because being idle is easy and human nature is like water - always prefers the easiest way through. Being something else, something more is difficult. Everything comes down to a simple every-day choice: are you someone that does what is easy? or are you someone that does what is right? Each little choice influences your will - or creates specific neural pathways in your brain if you so prefer. There are rarely any scarce but great choices that rapidly change people - but there are thousands of little ones that do it so slowly and regularly, that you don't even realise it.

 

[onlything]

Sometimes l just don't want to deal with stores, so l have tried salads from drive thru places. It's not instant gratification, it's avoidance of people for me.

I do the same, at times. People are loud and tiring.

 

[onlything]

I think I was the most interested in the 'scientific' stuff so far. I mean, knowing the way it works - it puts everything in such a different view!

1. There was a mention that if someone is holding a cold drink, they're more likely to perceive a stranger they meet as having a cold personality - why is it so? I don't believe I ever observed something like this in myself. Is it the same for autistics?

2. The part concerning the comparison of visuals vs olfactory systems causing specific emotional responses (in rodents, if I remember correctly). How is the brain built differently in people that receive greater emotional response through olfactory system in comparison to visual/auditory and vice versa? How is it for you? Is it dependent on a situation (as in: in the dark specific smells will cause a greater distress versus in the light of the day)? Is it different between ND and NT? For me, I think, it's more of an auditory influence - I hate people shouting - but is it an original response or is the neural pathway between my auditory layer and amygdala more pronounced due to my experiences - and as such causing greater distress in loud situations?

3. If amygdala plays role in fear responses then what exactly is its role in anxiety disorders? It's supposed to be larger in sufferers of such, as well as PTSD and anger issues - but why and exactly what influences cause it?

4. Exactly how much influence does amygdala have on forming positive memories anyway?

5. If the frontal cortex is the place where executive decisions are made then could there be a source of the executive function disorder/fault typical for auties? If specific areas of brain can be changed and grow with regular exercise (brain plasticity), then how much could these functions be improved with regular effort?

6. Remember the example of the shooter that killed his wife and child and committed suicide - while he had other issues, his brain autopsy showed a clear influence on the amygdala that could be one of the reasons for his behaviour. Having that in mind... What would an autopsy or neuroimagining of a terrorist's brain show? Or of a fanatic's brain?

7. The fact that frontal cortex is the last part of the brain to mature while being the center of executive function, emotions regulation etc. Doesn't it show how normal it is then for children and teenagers to be a little bit 'dramatic'? Is there a way for the society to become a bit more understanding of the issues? Having in mind that it's typical - how do you influence such an emotional brain to think logically? Is it why logic doesn't seem to work on most teenagers?

8. It reminded me of something else I've seen once - a theory that, since stress and trauma cause inflammation in the body, depression could be not a chemical imbalance in the brain, but instead a reaction of the body towards a perceived inflammatory disease. I wonder how close is that to the truth.

The video is here if someone's interested:

 

[Fino]

This book allows the reader to put many things into perspective. It's quite amazing, really.



It reminds of some psychology things I read before on bullying - where, in most if not all cases, it doesn't come from nowhere and tends to be release pent up aggression, as well as ascertain one's social position at the same time. It also shows that, despite people debating on it and often claiming otherwise, humans are simply evolved animals and have little superiority towards other species outside the fact of our evolution. It's kind of amusing, really - that we can be, at times, as petty as a so often looked down on baboon... It makes one wonder if human arrogance and superiority above other species are even warranted. If we are so similar, at the end of the day, then indeed 'why a dream of a crow should be worth less than a human's"? (Can someone remember where was it from?)

I disagree wholeheartedly with this worldview of humanity's relative worthlessness. Humans are astronomically superior to animals. But I realize your viewpoint--as is mine--is part of a greater line of reasoning, i.e. the indifference of the universe with its creation by accident, the meaninglessness of ruthless evolution, etc. I reject all of it and find evolution to be laughably unsubstantiated. It's the dominant dogma of our day. We have little choice but to believe in it. The end result is that life has no objective value. It's abhorrent.

 

[Fino]

I agree that we are creatures of instant gratification. Why wouldn't we be? It's instant gratification! Are you hearing exactly what that is? Instant, check. Gratification, check. And we should say no? That's where reason comes in, but I believe that's reactionary. Initially, it's the magic words, instant gratification.