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Featured Autism on trial in Canada (Trigger Warning)

Discussion in 'Politics Discussion' started by Mia, Mar 2, 2021.

  1. Mia

    Mia Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Trigger Warning

    A man who used a van to kill people is known to be autistic. Lawyers defending him are using autism as the reason he killed people. He was radicalized online by the incel community and online misogyny. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/allen...ntially-harmful-to-autism-community-1.5928577

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/alek-minassian-trial-dec-18-1.5847455

    People with autism do understand that having it, does not make us want to harm people. There are associated disorders (co-morbids) that may contribute to a different reality but nature and nurture contribute as well. We need to look at the studies behind why people do what they do:

    "... Extensive media attention in the 1990s may have propagated the Western“script” described by Mullen (2004), resulting in a perverse glamorization of the act of mass killing, particularly in the eyes of subsequent perpetrators. The study of individual cases of mass shootings that have occurred since the 1990s suggests that perpetrators often felt socially rejected and perceived society as continually de-nouncing them as unnecessary, ineffectual, and pathetic. Instead of bearing the burden of the humiliation, they plan a surprise attack to prove their hidden “value.”Narcissism is strengthened and rigidified by obsessive ruminations along the lines of “I am right and I’ve been treated badly or wronged (by other people or by life).” It could be said that the mass shooter’s persecutory and narcissistic mind-set seeks a form of reverse specialness. By becoming a lone protestor against an“unjust” reality, the mass shooter creates and assumes a powerful victim role inwhich he can “win”—even by losing. This interest in the narcissistic antihero has conspicuously permeated Western fiction and popular culture, in which follow-ers thrill to the exploits of characters who possess the “dark triad” of personality: narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism (Jonanson et al. 2012)..."
    Psychiatry Online

    All the people I know with autism here and in my personal life, do not spend their days ruminating on ways to harm people. I hate that the courts and media and even autism speaks use autism to scapegoat all the while they look for the simplest explanation. Even if there is not one. Most aspies I know personally are the most moral/ethical people I've ever known. Having lived their entire lives that way.

    Let's hope that court cases of this nature, do not scapegoat us any longer. Rather, that they eventually provide a true logical understanding of people with autism.

    What do you think?
     
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  2. Sapphire K

    Sapphire K Autistic Pansexual Enby! (they/them) V.I.P Member

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    I agree. I do not wish to intentionally physically harm anybody unless out of self defense. Even in self defense situations, I will try to refrain from killing my attacker, and instead try to knock out or otherwise nonlethally incapacitate them (such as disabling them by breaking one or more limbs).

    When lawyers use autism as the reason why a criminal hurt somebody, it only hurts us. Not only on the level of the public image of autism, but it hurts most autistic people, such as myself, emotionally. I do not want to be associated with murderers and terrorists.

    But, hey, that's lawyers for you. Most of them care more about getting money rather than other people. The only example I can thank of that would say otherwise would be in "To Kill a Mockingbird."
     
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  3. Markness

    Markness Young God

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    Autistic or not, what he did was reprehensible and he should get put in the slammer. As far as I know, he didn’t seek help for his issues and that’s what he should’ve been doing instead of doom scrolling negative forums.

    Are you familiar with the term love-shyness? It often gets used interchangeably with the term incel but it actually predates that term and means something different. It was coined by the late psychologist Dr. Brian Gilmartin and he did a study as well as published a book about it interviewing men who desired relationships with women but their shyness was so strong and painful that they never made approaches. I am in that boat (I have made approaches but they didn’t work out.) though I think I am getting better and I hope this Friday I will have a tale of success to share.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that in a correspondence with Gilmartin in 2004, he mentioned that there could be a link between love-shyness and autism/Aspergers.
     
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  4. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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    This is so unethical that the lawyers are using it as a defense.

    Both autistic people and mentally ill people are already discriminated against and it's so harmful to use something a person is born with like nationality/biological gender/disability/sexuality etc. As a basis for criminal activity. It is not only unethical, but in my opinion also a bit like hate speech to use this as a crutch.
     
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  5. Sapphire K

    Sapphire K Autistic Pansexual Enby! (they/them) V.I.P Member

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    Next thing that the lawyers is gonna say is that they played GTA, or at least used to. Ugh. I hate this amount of uneducated bullcrap. Seeing this always saddens and angers me. Such news is distressing to me and I am tired of seeing and hearing it. I feel emotionally hurt whenever an article like this pops up.

    I bet we will have to deal with this crap less in the future tho as the public image of Autism improves, as well as the general understanding of ASD.
     
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  6. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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    Yes, most autistic people are traumatized by their experiences already, being grouped with a bunch of criminals is definitely not what we need. People who commit crimes do it because they CHOOSE to, period.

    It also makes no sense to me legally, where i live autism isn't something that affects criminal capacity. Unless the person is also intellectually disabled to the point that they are unaware of their own actions they are held responsible for their actions.
     
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  7. Mia

    Mia Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Me too, it makes me feel like some sort of monster. As if I have 'tainted blood' and that I'll eventually begin doing those same things to others.

    Given that I've rescued both wild and domestic animals all of my life, and spend my summers moving caterpillars away from the danger of being squashed on the bike path. It follows that now I'll develop a blood lust to kill people, she retorts sarcastically.
     
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  8. Sapphire K

    Sapphire K Autistic Pansexual Enby! (they/them) V.I.P Member

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    I am a human being with human emotions, I just don't show them well or may not express empathy in an obvious way. I want people to learn that Autistic people do feel empathy, they just tend to show it in different ways. Whenever I see crap like this, I feel dehumanized, villainized, and demonized. It breaks my heart to see this kind of crap. I hate it and wish for this bullcrap to just stop already. It is almost as if people are just willing to hurt me and others like me on a large scale just for a quick buck.
     
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  9. OkRad

    OkRad μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην V.I.P Member

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    Autistic people can be everything NTs are. Of course they can plan and murder although it is shown that the disabled are MANY more times likely to be harmed than to harm.

    I don't know anything about this man's particular frame of mind so I can't make an informed conclusion.
     
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  10. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Well if autism can be a defense for killing or crimes, surely being neurotypical ought to be an even better defence? As a lot more killers and criminals are neurotypical? They could say it must be their mainstream brain functioning that made them do it... or that they are so successfully sociable that they are more likely to meet people who are a bad influence on them...
     
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  11. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    People that have been ostracized can spin out either way. I actually was ostracized very late in life so it hasn't had the desired effect because most of my life was normal and l was never ostracized until marriage. However, because l had so little attention as a child, l simply look at it as attention, whether good or bad it's still attention. But l have no desire to harm me or others. I simply look on in amazement that people parade around as complete nincompoops for my amazement. Entertainment value l guess.
     
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  12. Au Naturel

    Au Naturel Au Naturel

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    This interest in the narcissistic antihero has conspicuously permeated Western fiction and popular culture, in which follow-ers thrill to the exploits of characters who possess the “dark triad” of personality: narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism

    Uh... who did we kick out of office after 4 years of craziness?

    Now, everyone knows that the publicity given to Klebold and Harris spurred copycat killings that continued into the last few years. A lot of that publicity was sympathetic, blaming society or guns or bullying for their behavior, leading to the "tragic antihero driven to villainy" archetype. Hey! I can get a piece of that for myself.

    It's called the Werther effect. Only instead of just being suicide, it is suicide with a dose of mass murder.

    [The "Werther-effect": legend or reality?] - PubMed

    Still, I'm not seeing a lot of movies where the protagonist is a narcissistic, psychopathological, and Machiavellian antihero. It does happen once in a while but they give the character redeeming qualities. Say, he's a mass murderer who only kills other mass murderers and the other traits are toned down.
     
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  13. Gracey

    Gracey Well-Known Member

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    I think people can trust themselves not to live each day stuck in a loop of reverse specialness & murderous intent.

    All have it in them to kill in certain circumstances. It's the darker side of human nature.

    If I mention the word 'psychopath', thanks to fiction many would automatically associate the word with serial killing.
    I'm led to believe only 15% of the worlds psychopaths (allegedly) display traits or have been prosecuted for crimes of that nature.
    They head up huge corporations and run successful businesses instead.

    I suspect only the jury will be privy to this chaps entire history (medical reports, diagnosis, referrals, school reports etc)
    the general public may just be presented with the term 'autism' and make judgement based on that alone.

    It's saddening to think this man got as far as he did without anyone else noticing something was off,
    and intervening,
    during the time leading up to the event.
     
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  14. MyLifeAsAnAspie

    MyLifeAsAnAspie Well-Known Member

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    Psychiatry does not support the "autism defense". Attorneys seem to keep trying it though. I hope they are never successful.
     
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  15. Mia

    Mia Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    There are no studies showing a propensity for violence as regards autistic people.

    Each time I see these accounts of probable autism in the media, it seems as if autistics are being profiled.
     
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  16. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    The Joker seems like such a film?
     
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  17. Major Tom

    Major Tom Searching for ground control... V.I.P Member

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    I wouldn't harm a fly, things like this just further creates a sense of disassociation with the reality of what autism really is. It's kind of like an anti-Rainman effect. The fact of the matter is that nobody understands what is going on inside of someone else's head. Be they NT, or fellow autistic people. We all have our reasons for doing what we do. (Be them good or bad things). Assuming that we know why someone does something is just that, an assumption. It's a cop-out in my opinion.

    Since it's on the "news" surely a vast majority will believe it and I find that very sad.
     
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  18. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    Totally agree with this post. My brain also wanders over to those types who seek their Andy Warhol 15 mins of fame. The thinking that l never made the news, hell I'll show them, they will never forget me. Then we read it in the news the next day.
     
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  19. Sapphire K

    Sapphire K Autistic Pansexual Enby! (they/them) V.I.P Member

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    I actively hunt down what are essentially wild animals in Monster Hunter on a daily basis. Cutting their tails off, breaking their horns, breaking their shells, etc., and then either slaying or capturing them (or occasionally repelling them in certain cases). However, I will not harm another person unless I am attacked first in order to defend myself and preserve my own life, and I will only use the appropriate force in those specific cases.

    This brings me back to when I was in middle school, I felt alone. I felt like I needed to actively seek validation from wherever I can find. That was before I found this site, as well. In my brick and mortar middle school, I was ostracized and made fun of by my peers, and I hated it. I was sick of it, and I felt alone, as well. Hearing stories like this makes me think back on those years, which were a dark age in my past, and I hate it. I don't want to feel like that again.
     
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  20. Mia

    Mia Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    TORONTO -- A judge has ruled that the accused is criminally responsible for the 2018 Toronto van attack, finding him guilty of 10 counts of first-degree murder and 16 counts of attempted murder.

    In her decision, which was broadcast on YouTube amid the COVID-19 pandemic, Ontario Superior Court Justice Anne Molloy said the accused had a "functioning, rational brain" and spent a considerable amount of time planning the attack and weighing the consequences.


    "He desperately wanted to achieve fame and notoriety," Molloy said, adding that he believed that negative attention for his actions would be "better than living in obscurity."

    Alek Minassian found criminally responsible for Toronto van attack, guilty on all 26 counts

    Relieved.