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Featured Autism and morality

Discussion in 'Autism Spectrum News, Events and Research' started by AprilR, Nov 8, 2020.

  1. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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  2. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    This was a interesting read. Because l find myself overthinking and applying any excuse to do the right thing. So l feel better that it's just wiring on my circuit board. Right now l am dealing with this at my employment. Some people have done things that l wouldn't do but they have done them for so long, they don't change. l don't want to lose my job and l have to work with them. They can clique up against me also. Now there is a camera in the correct area and l feel less pressure. This protects me and forces employees to change their behavior hopefully. My job is just that, not a place for me to take advantage of anything. l wish people had that mindset. I understand you can be on the spectrum and dishonest also.
     
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  3. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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    My dad who is also an aspie is very strict about not lying. If he absolutely has to, he chooses to not mention things rather than lie about them. I am like that too, i am always thinking of possibilities that my lie would be exposed or such. So i really hate lying and i am really bad at it.
     
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  4. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    I agree. It's the way we are. We are truth models birthed into a corrupt world as some type of sadistic test that never ends. I walk a tightrope of doing the right thing but not being stepped on by conflicting agendas.
     
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  5. Ursus Chainus

    Ursus Chainus Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Haha... they think the ToM is hardwired in the brain! Silly shrinkydinks :)

    The ToM is simply learned culture. And yes, it is stored there. And no Virginia, there is no ToM.

    So we are "disordered"... what about the millions of NTs that happily commit genocide? We are "disordered" personally. They are disordered in violent mobs. If what I have is a disorder... why isn't war their disorder?

    What causes more hurt in this world? Us not getting cultural queues or their gathering together in defense of lies and non reality to commit horrendous acts?

    Where is your ToM when you are dropping bombs on children and innocents?

    Anyway... sorry for the intensity. The theory of mind is such a laughable concept. I find it to be a way to promote bigotry... YOU don't have a theory of mind you are less than me... an ordered person.

    Yeah... most of us don't lie and cannot. I cannot compliment, tell a white lie or be anything other than honest. Maybe they need to figure a way to get rid of that mendacious ol' ToM. It is a cancer in NT brains ;)
     
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  6. Ursus Chainus

    Ursus Chainus Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Yes!
     
  7. Exbrewer

    Exbrewer New Member

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    I like to think I had a career in which I was respected for being honest and truthful. Maybe I am wrong.
     
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  8. Finder

    Finder Member

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    Thanks for posting that. It was very interesting.

    This seem to be a trait that is manifested in many aspects of autism. It would explain important factors in the ToM hypothesis. We tend to value things other than emotional rewards.
     
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  9. Au Naturel

    Au Naturel Au Naturel

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    Yeah... about that abstract.

    In my experience, people with ASD follow rules because they don't understand when rules really aren't rules. That's part of the social skillset. I had more than one occasion to be reprimanded for doing something marginally against the rules that I saw another person do without receiving any consequences.

    "But he did it too!"

    "That's different." (Unspoken but probably true, "You're not cool like him.")

    To be safe, I learned to obey the rules slavishly.

    I don't think worrying about the harmful effects of my behavior on other people has anything to do with it. As an aspie, I have learned the rules aren't applied equally between the popular/social and Martians like me. Even when a whole lot of rules are being broken by a whole lot of people, there seems a certainty that it will be worse for me than for them, because I just can't navigate the problem well, I lack the social connections, and because I lack the resilience to bounce back.

    I unlearned some of this over time but I still get nervous when, say, my wife decides a traffic rule isn't meant to be obeyed. Or a park rule or a rule at work or whatever.

    You miss out on a lot of fun. May even keep you from prospering as you might. But you won't be formally punished.
     
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  10. WildCat

    WildCat V.I.P Member

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    The test of a lifetime. I'll take that versus being an overall jerk to get one step ahead.

    It may not net me rewards, status, wealth or anything superficial but I'm not here to be a carbon copy of the next person. And yeah, as has been shown before there are exceptions with people on the spectrum.
     
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  11. Meistersinger

    Meistersinger Well-Known Member

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    I follow the old adage:

    “Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice, shame on me.”

    Lie to me one time, and you’ll never see or hear from me again.

    Ditto if you try to pull any kind of malevolent stunt on me.

    people wonder why I’m a recluse and a hermit?
     
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  12. Crossbreed

    Crossbreed Neur-D Missionary ☝

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    Even when lying is justified --and it can be-- not saying anything at all has a longer shelf life. ;)
     
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  13. Kalinychta

    Kalinychta Well-Known Member

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    I've thought about this thread so much since it was posted. I'm surprised there weren't more responses. I think @Aspychata is absolutely correct: autistic people "over" analyze (or perhaps not-autistic people don't analyze enough?!) and so we are more intellectually invested in doing the "right" thing. However, this doesn't fully explain the phenomenon. I've noticed in my life that 99.99% of people don't do the most ethical or moral thing simply because it is the most ethical or moral thing; rather, they only do it if and only if the majority of people are doing it. So in other words, most people are neither ethical nor moral.

    And so I wonder,...are autistic people more moral or ethical (really), and if so, why do we feel the obligation beyond the "why" to do the right thing?
     
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  14. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    For me, it has a lot to do with empathy and also consequences of my actions.
    I get frustrated about other people’s immoral actions, as well as mine. I don’t think I’m entitled to upset people unless I’m feeling vindictive. And that’s not a good excuse, either. Also, that’s besides the point.
    I’d rather have a clear conscious and have less to worry about than getting what I want or what’s ideal. In the end, more worries would put me further away from an ideal situation, anyway. And, I get affected deeply if I upset or hurt people. I do it regardless but it’s mostly just not keeping my mouth shut when I know that what I’m about to say will hurt other people. That’s the biggest moral conflict I constantly encounter.
    Recently, I fell in love with someone and for a while it was all that mattered. At some point, things became clear to me that despite our many many similarities, he chose himself like most people at the end of day. And he disregarded things that I find quite valuable in life. I told him exactly what I thought of him, and his character. Being mean to him felt awful. I had to be honest and that meant giving up what he made me feel. But I just couldn’t deal with certain things that felt terribly wrong.
    I still love him, I still care about him; worry about him. I don’t want to be miserable but I’d rather be that than dishonest.
    Not sure if it’s because I’m on the spectrum. I’m not even sure if I’m on the spectrum. Knowing that wouldn’t change much for me at this point of life, though.

    P.S. Feeling compelled to do the right thing also kept me from having a stable income as well as a successful career. Although it’s more of a logical choice for me, rather than a necessity. Even when the results make me question my logic sometimes.
     
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  15. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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    @Esa:
    I agree with you, you explained my thoughts perfectly. Lying and being mean to people worries me, it feels like i will be punished by something/someone even if no one understands that i am lying. I want to have a clear conscience.

    I am also not good with saying negative things to people, or upsetting someone. I almost feel like i have to confess and repent for it whenever i upset someone even.

    I also empathize (idk if this is the right word?) with your situation. I am sorry you are dealing with loss of an important person, in a way i am too.

    It seems to me that most people do not consider the consequences of their actions, whether it would hurt people or not. And people do not consider making a connection with someone an important thing. Whereas to me it is very important, because i never had so many people around me that i could connect. When i connect with someone i am always very careful to not hurt them.
    But some people, despite having better social skills just do not put an effort to relationships.

    Also regarding your last point, i also see this as a major barrier to me having my own business (i am a lawyer) there are so many two faced people, too many social manuveuring and lying and manipulation involved when you deal with clients directly.
    I would much prefer doing research and writing legal documents after someone else decides what to do in a situation.
     
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  16. Crossbreed

    Crossbreed Neur-D Missionary ☝

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    Did you find out that you were autistic before, or after, you passed the bar?
     
  17. AprilR

    AprilR Well-Known Member

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    I found out at my first year of college. I considered dropping out many times but my parents were against it and i was heavily depressed to make a major decision anyway. (in my country there is no bar exam, just exams to enter college)
     
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  18. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    Same as my country.
     
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  19. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    I don’t struggle when it comes to socializing but I find it pointless If it’s only for the sake of socializing. I’d rather have meaningful connections than being popular. Even when there’s seemingly nothing to gain (career or money related) people often choose to manipulate each other and it doesn’t make sense. No one will make me feel good about myself enough for me to disregard everything else I care about. Means don’t justify the ends. I’d hate using people even though I find it relatively easy, and I become a dangerous person when I’m being used. So I think I’m an introvert by choice. I understand people and why they do the things they do. I just don’t think it makes sense most of the time and I’m not interested in interacting with such people.
    I care deeply about people who are on the same wavelength with me, but that’s hard to come by. When I find out I’ve been wrong about someone, it can be devastating. So I confront people when that happens. I want them to know how their actions affect other people. And hope that maybe they’ll be more considerate next time they get close to someone. I do that even when I feel horrible about not sparing their feelings in the meantime. It never makes me feel better to be brutally honest with people though. I see no alternative, or I just don’t consider the alternatives worthy of being options. I could be quiet but then it feels like everyone knows what’s really going on but choosing to pretend all is okay. It’s pointless. It’s insincere.
    As far as lying or cheating goes, I don’t worry about the punishment side of it, like you said, no one would need to know for me to feel bad about it. I’d just “know” and that’s bad enough.

    Even now, as I remember some of the recent incidents, my mind goes all over the place and I can’t be coherent or consistent. These things shake my core and I watch others go on with their lives like nothing’s happened. It’s incredible how priorities and mindsets of different people can be so far from each other when it doesn’t feel like those people aren’t so different at all.
     
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  20. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry that you have to deal with unfair people, which in your field must be harder to tolerate.
    And it’s just insane that so many people are okay with injustice as long as their needs are being met. I’m crushed under the weight of all kinds and levels of guilt and shame, and I’m not even remotely terrible as some people.
     
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