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Aspergers+Schizophrenia

BlackRainbow

Active Member
Aspergers seems to have a lot on common with Schizophrenia. Both have a hard time functioning in social settings, hard time finding work/having a job, racing thoughts, anxiety, depression...the only thing that is different with scizophrenia is the hallucinations and paranoia/catatonia. There's a whole spectrum of schizophrenia just like autism. Some more severe than others.

I've been diagnosed with aspergers twice. But I'll admit I didn't give out too much info about my thoughts or what I see (out of fear of being locked up or labled as crazy). I see things, hear things, smell things, feel things that other people don't see. I'm also very paranoid to where I can't even leave my house alone. I'm just not sure what to think of my diagnosis...

Is there some kind of connection?

Aspergers was at first called "autistic psychopathy":bounce:
 
Aspergers seems to have a lot on common with Schizophrenia.

Is there some kind of connection?

There certainly appears to be in googling such a potential connection. Where one could possibly be comorbid to the other, as well as mutually exclusive as well.
 
I'd like to remind everyone that comorbidity isn't the same thing as two conditions being equivalent. But schizophrenia and autism may be more closely related than we realize. I think the jury's still out on this, though. Maybe I'll ask my psychologist the next time I speak to her.
 
I'd like to remind everyone that comorbidity isn't the same thing as two conditions being equivalent. But schizophrenia and autism may be more closely related than we realize. I think the jury's still out on this, though. Maybe I'll ask my psychologist the next time I speak to her.

Please do & let us know what she says! I was diagnosed as both an Aspie & Schizotypal (NOT the same as schizophrenic or Schizoid). So, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that many of us have a little 'Schiz' in us.

 
I'd like to remind everyone that comorbidity isn't the same thing as two conditions being equivalent.

Curious as to why you chose to post that. Something your physician is pondering?

I've never heard comorbidity related as being an equivalent condition. Only that it can be simultaneous to another condition. A qualitative term rather than a specifically quantitative one. Or are there precedents to the contrary? Just wondering.

Interesting to read the term "overlapping" a number of times in consideration of Aspergers and Schizophrenia. Not really sure what they were getting at using that term as well. Yes- it all had the appearance of the jury still being out!
 
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Please do & let us know what she says! I was diagnosed as both an Aspie & Schizotypal (NOT the same as schizophrenic or Schizoid). So, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that many of us have a little 'Schiz' in us.


I sometimes wonder the same about myself. There is a certain "overlap" between both disorders as well.

But I'm afraid by the time I figure it out the DSM will have already applied a new name to it...whether a combination or not!
 
Curious as to why you chose to post that. Something your physician is pondering?

I've never heard comorbidity related as being an equivalent condition. Only that it can be simultaneous to another condition. A qualitative term rather than a specifically quantitative one. Or are there precedents to the contrary? Just wondering.

Interesting to read the term "overlapping" a number of times in consideration of Aspergers and Schizophrenia. Not really sure what they were getting at using that term as well. Yes- it all had the appearance of the jury still being out!

I posted that reminder so no one is accidentally misled.

I've only skimmed it, but he material I've found seems to indicate that autism and schizophrenia may involve some of the same neural pathways in the brain.
 
I sometimes wonder the same about myself. There is a certain "overlap" between both disorders as well.

But I'm afraid by the time I figure it out the DSM will have already applied a new name to it...whether a combination or not!

Seems like they've been rather Schizoid themselves of late!

 


Seems like they've been rather Schizoid themselves of late!


I'm really interested in that issue...wondering if my issues/interests in the paranormal overlap into the schizotypal category.

And how I process audio pareidolia might be relative (if at all) to anything schizophrenic. Morbid curiosity over my own condition...whoops! But yeah, leave it to the DSM to categorize it as something else...lol.
 
To clarify, schizoid personality disorder and schizophrenia are unrelated.

Technically they're supposed to be. However could there be a possibility of them overlapping as well?

Consider only the context of what I posted. Assuming you understand the implications of audio pareidolia and the possibility of it being interpreted as a sign (audio hallucination) of schizophrenia. Of course that would be contingent with someone's preoccupation with the paranormal directly attributed to a diagnosis of Schizotypal Personality Disorder. Of course I'm only speculating....but it would be a bit amusing if medical professionals could associate what should be two different conditions.
 
To clarify, schizoid personality disorder and schizophrenia are unrelated.

Wow didn't think I'd get so many replies!

I thought schizoid is on the schizophrenic spectrum?

I took a personality disorder quiz (similarminds) and I scored highest with schizotypal and schizoid. Not saying it's a diagnosis but, it does say something.
 
Wow didn't think I'd get so many replies!

I thought schizoid is on the schizophrenic spectrum?

I took a personality disorder quiz (similarminds) and I scored highest with schizotypal and schizoid. Not saying it's a diagnosis but, it does say something.

It's an interesting subject on any number of levels...glad you posted. ;)
 
Wow didn't think I'd get so many replies!

I thought schizoid is on the schizophrenic spectrum?

I took a personality disorder quiz (similarminds) and I scored highest with schizotypal and schizoid. Not saying it's a diagnosis but, it does say something.

Schizoid personality disorder is, well, a personality disorder. Schizophrenia is completely different. (That's what I meant when I said they're unrelated issues, Judge. If they happen to be comorbid, I wouldn't know anything about it. But I personally doubt that.)
 
If they happen to be comorbid, I wouldn't know anything about it. But I personally doubt that.)

Yet what if they were comorbid?

Interesting to ponder...but my honest concern is actually the opposite. To be able to disassociate my paranormal experiences from any neurological conditions that I may have. Yet I could see a skeptical mindset wanting to connect the two for an erroneous slam-dunk misdiagnosis. Or am I being paranoid? LOL.

Being an Aspie puts me into a minority. Witnessing a paranormal event...even more so. I tend to joke about it a bit.

At least it's something I can and do share with Neurotypicals. ;)
 
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Is there some kind of connection?

There are five points involved in this question, which I will name a to e and adress below. But first of all, two important caveats:

- As I say in my signature, I'm just a guy with a keyboard. So readers are encouraged to check by themselves my quotes and reasoning from them.

- The studies I quote were the most current on the subject when I researched it in november 2012. Therefore it is very likely that newer studies have been published on the subject, which can have confirmed or denied the findings of the quoted ones. Readers are encouraged to research for such newer studies.

For all studies, I provide the authors and the title but not the link, as that would cause this message to requiere admin approval. The studies can be found searching for the title in scholar.google.com.


a. What is the statistical relationship between both disorders? I.e., are they mutually exclusive in practice or do they coexist?

The traditional answer to this question, that "they are mutually exclusive", has been challenged in 2012 by two studies:

[a.1] Maria Unenge Hallerbäck, Tove Lugnegård, & Christopher Gillberg 2012. "Is autism spectrum disorder common in schizophrenia?"

Abstract:

A century ago, Kraepelin and Bleuler observed that schizophrenia is often antedated by “premorbid” abnormalities. In this study we explore how the childhood neurodevelopmental problems found in patients with schizophrenia relate to the current concept of autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Forty-six young adult individuals with clinical diagnoses of schizophrenic psychotic disorders were assessed. The Structured Clinical Interview for DSM Disorders (SCID-I) was used in face-to-face psychiatric examination of each individual. In 32 of the 46 cases (70%), collateral information was provided by one or both parents. The Diagnostic Interview for Social and Communication Disorders — eleventh version (DISCO-11) was used when interviewing these relatives. This instrument covers, in considerable depth, childhood development, adaptive functioning, and symptoms of ASD — current and lifetime. There is a strict algorithm for ASD diagnosis. About half of the cases with schizophrenic psychosis had ASD according to the results of the parental interview. The rate of ASD was strikingly high (60%) in the group with a SCID-I diagnosis of schizophrenia paranoid type. The findings underscore the need to revisit the DSM's “either or” stance between ASD and schizophrenia.

[a.2] Petra Waris, Nina Lindberg, Kirsi Kettunen, & Pekka Tani 2012. "The relationship between Asperger’s syndrome and schizophrenia in adolescence"

Abstract

Asperger’s syndrome (AS), a pervasive developmental disorder (PDD), has nowadays been widely advocated in media. Therefore, psychiatrists treating adolescents frequently meet patients as well as their families reporting of symptoms resembling those of Asperger’s syndrome. It is known that symptoms of Asperger’s syndrome have some overlap with those of schizophrenia, but less is known about comorbidity between these two syndromes. We describe a sample of 18 adolescents with early onset schizophrenia. Diagnosis of schizophrenia was based on assessment with Kiddie Schedule for Affective Disorders and Schizophrenia. The diagnostic interview for Social and Communication Disorders version 11 was used to assess autism spectrum disorders. Ten adolescents fulfilled symptom criteria of Asperger’s syndrome after the onset of schizophrenia, while only two persons had Asperger’s syndrome before the onset of schizophrenia, a prerequisite for diagnosis. 44 % of the adolescents fulfilled the diagnosis of some PDD in childhood. Most of them were, however, unrecognized before the onset of schizophrenia. On the other hand, all 18 patients had one or more symptoms of PDDS in adolescence. Adolescents with schizophrenia have often symptoms consistent with AS, although only few of them have fulfilled the diagnostic criteria in their childhood, a prerequisite for the diagnosis of AS. There is a risk for misdiagnosis of adolescents with autistic symptoms if detailed longitudinal anamnesis is not obtained.


b. What is the phenotypical relationship between both disorders? I.e., is the underlying phenomenon the same or different in each?

In order to answer that, we need plausible theories describing at least the main physical phenomenon underlying each disorder.

IMV, the currently most plausible such explanations are the "long-distance neural underconnectivity" for ASD, and the malfunction caused by neuronal oxidative/nitrosative stress for schizophrenia. If these are the actual cases, then there is no reason why the disorders should be mutually exclusive.

Therefore, if the severity of each disorder is measured along one of the two coordinate axes in a plane, x for ASD and y for schizophrenia, the traditional view is that cases could be exclusively along one of the axes, and the new view is that cases can have nonzero values of both coordinates.


c. Does having an ASD increase the probability of getting schizophrenia?

This question in turn can be asked on either the statistical or phenomenological level. Focusing on the second, some studies have observed in ASD cases a deficiency in the level of glutathion, which is the endogenous detoxifying agent that prevents oxidative and nitrosative stress.

Thus, ASD cases would be at greater risk of malfunction of neuronal systems due to oxidative/nitrosative stress, so that,

- if the malfunction occurs at higher functional levels, such as logical thinking, they get psychotic episodes like delusions and hallucinations, like you.
- if the malfunction occurs at lower functional levels, such as control of the immune system, they get Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, like Blade_Runner and myself.

Most aspies get neither because, when their neuronal energy production is impaired by nitrosative stress, they go the shutdown way instead of the malfunction way. And as the logical functional level shuts down, the limbic system takes over and you can get e.g. a fit of rage in males or a crying meltdown in females.

[c.1] Yusra A Al-Yafee, Laila Y Al- Ayadhi, Samina H Haq and Afaf K El-Ansary 2011
Novel metabolic biomarkers related to sulfur-dependent detoxification pathways in autistic patients of Saudi Arabia

Results
Reduced glutathione (GSH), total glutathione (GSH+GSSG), glutathione status (GSH/GSSG), ... were significantly lower, ... in autistics compared to control subjects.

Conclusion
The impaired glutathione status ... could be used as diagnostic biomarkers of autism.

[c.2] Mara Parellada, Carmen Moreno, Karina Mac-Dowell, Juan Carlos Leza, Marisa Giraldez, Concepción Bailón, Carmen Castro, Patricia Miranda-Azpiazu, David Fraguas, Celso Arango 2011
Plasma antioxidant capacity is reduced in Asperger syndrome

TAOS (total antioxidant status) was reduced in Asperger individuals compared with healthy controls and psychosis patients, after covarying by age and antipsychotic treatment. This reduced antioxidant capacity did not depend on any of the individual antioxidant variables measured. ... In conclusion, Asperger patients seem to have chronic low detoxifying capacity.

[c.3] Chauhan A, Audhya T, Chauhan V. 2012
Brain region-specific glutathione redox imbalance in autism

These findings indicate that autism is associated with deficits in glutathione antioxidant defense in selective regions of the brain.

[c.4] Penelope AE Main*, Manya T Angley, Catherine E O'Doherty, Philip Thomas and Michael Fenech 2012
The potential role of the antioxidant and detoxification properties of glutathione in autism spectrum disorders: a systematic review and meta-analysis

The findings of this systematic review support the assertion that children with autism spectrum disorders are more likely to have significantly lower tGSH and GSH and significantly increased GSSG, resulting in a significantly lower GSH:GSSG than children without autism.


d. What is the hereditary relationship between both disorders? I.e., what is their statistical correlation within families?

I remember a statistical correlation had been found, but I leave finding the relevant studies in scholar.google.com to people having the interest and will to do so.


e. What is the genetic relationship between both disorders? I.e., have any common genetic mutations been identified in both?

Though this is a field still very immature, I remember that some common genetic basis had been preliminary found. Again, I leave this answer to people willing to do the research.
 
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I forgot to add the following to the answer to point b, and I can no longer edit that message, so here it goes:

If this hypothesis is correct, there should be observations of aspies experiencing psychotic episodes after an increase in the level of Nitric Oxide (NO) in their brains. I actually found two studies published in 2011 that describe such observations, one of them in two separate occasions and through different mechanisms:

[b.1] Arrasate-Gil M, Martínez-Cengotitabengoa M, López-Peña P. 2011
Reflections on Asperger syndrome and comorbidity with psychotic disorders

The patient of this case had two psychotic episodes (page 2):

- The first episode happened after the extraction of a tooth. It is well knwon that the response of the immune system to a localized infection is the constant production of high quantities of NO in that region. As it is reasonable to assume that the extraction was preceded by an infection in the root of the tooth, it is reasonable to assume that there was a high constant production of NO in the neighbourhood of that root, a considerable part of which could have easily diffused into the brain.

- The second episode happened after a flu, three years after the first episode. It is well known that the response of the immune system to a generalized viral infection like a flu is the constant production of high quantities of NO in the whole body, including the brain.

[b.2] Sintes A, Arranz B, Ramírez N, Rueda I, San L. 2011
Asperger syndrome: can the disorder be diagnosed in the adult age?

The patient of this case had a psychotic episode a few days after being enlisted in the Military Service (page 2). On the one hand, anyone with a working knowledge of AS knows perfectly that it is highly likely that an aspie just enlisted is experiencing a very high level of chronic stress. On the other hand, it is well known that exposition to chronic stress causes a sustained increase in the production of NO in the brain.
 
Definitely in my case. I was diagnosed paranoid schizo in high school. All the drugs I was doing probably had a lot to do with that, but I wonder how much, exactly. I no longer imagine hostile plots against me, but often FEEL as though everyone is against me and means me harm. I'm a gas at parties, is what I'm saying.

Some of that probably has to do with never knowing how to act around people, so always being on the outside, singled out, picked on, talked about, etc. The fact that my older brothers, whom I idolized, got together twice and tried to off me, having it look like an accident (no, really), doesn't help either. I could go on about my family, but I'm sure some here could easily top what I'd say. I trust almost no one, and expect people to betray and reject me. Despite all this, I have two real friends, whom I do trust, and have actually developed meaningful friendships with. There are very very few poeple I would miiss if I never saw them again.
 
Hi Blackrainbow? How should I call you, it is a little difficult to write Blackrainbow every time I want to refer to you, I believe in courtesies as a natural way of communicating all the essentials of an intelligent conversation without endangering the sensitivity or sensibility of the 'other' person?

If for now I refer to you as BR? Perhaps it carries the same cache as 'JR' or 'MD'? I am finding it odd for the general traits of Schizoid, Schizotypal modes of behaving are described as "Secretive", "Shying away from exposure to social contacts" albeit generalisations but I am intrigued because you appear to be trying to understand the essential core of your belief in being exactly this type of person by comparing whatever you think it is to Autism, Asperger's or perhaps you are trying to understand the meaning of a "Spectrum" when referring to any diagnosis? You appear to have grasped, as you are writing your opening statement, the concept that "Butter is not the same thing at all as 'buttery'".

But are you ready to accept change as the basis of everything you perceive? I ask this as I was diagnosed as suffering from "Paranoid Schizophrenia" at a time when I was struggling to understand all of the received imagery of my life from the late 1950's up until I could go no further without needing to challenge and assert some form of freedom to re-assess the many conflicting statements, behavioural directives, emotional restrictions and functional ideas that I much later learned were already understood elsewhere and by other people. A moment of inspiration, was an idea, as "Meta-programming" was a language with syntax, purpose and direction. It was being used by many people both as practitioners and as students. We would mistakenly call them patients but until a 'patient' is ready to change the likelihood is they will all be treated as patients. It is safer to recognise and trust another human being to guide them or us through some of the more difficult concepts to work through them and realise the true nature of change.

I am trying to 'second guess' what you may now be thinking. It is likely you will realise all of the above is in relativistic terms and that to understand it a whole spectrum of possibilities does indeed exist but then a sense of equilibrium is achieved, through a sense of, an example of, balance.
 
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Reading this article, which I chose as it's UK based like me, it would appear that aspects of autistic spectrum / Asperger's can be manifest in the same or similar ways.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophrenia/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

The only real difference that I identified from my subjective experience of autism is the hearing voices aspect. I was asked by a Community Psychiatric Nurse whether I experienced hearing voices & said yes but only my own...by which I meant there is a frequent internalized monologue which accompanies much of what I am doing. It is more extreme when I am feeling anxious or under stress.
 

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