Any thoughts?

[mina]

Being a teacher in a detention center, I have strong opinions about this...what do you guys think?

Petition · #JusticeforKayleb: An autistic 6th grader unfairly convicted of a felony. · Change.org

 

[BlueConundrum]

Being a teacher in a detention center, I have strong opinions about this...what do you guys think?

Petition · #JusticeforKayleb: An autistic 6th grader unfairly convicted of a felony. · Change.org

Oh jeez, this is terrible. I have some thoughts about it that I'm not 100% comfortable articulating as I am still new here and don't know every aspect about the climate of this site. Basically, I'll say this: I'm not surprised that a black autistic child received this horrible treatment. Obviously, autistic children of all races are at risk, but I think anyone who pays even the slightest bit of attention to news stories about police brutality will see that there are multiple levels of crap going on here.

I found this blog post that discusses it in more detail than I feel comfortable discussing.

 

[qwerty]

Please, mina and BlueConundrum feel free to express your thoughts and opinions here, this is a safe encouraging site that values input from everyone as long as it is not offensive then please, share.

I sadly am not surprised. I feel sick when i read of people on the spectrum subjected to such bigotry and ignorance. At least these too common cases are beginning to receive attention, which to me fuels my hope of raising public awareness of spectrum conditions.

I would love to see the judicial system reprimand this officer for abuse of his authority and bigotry and be made to make a public apology and also apologise directly to this child.

The anger i feel at these injustices i will attempt to channel towards motivation to raise awareness.

 

[epath13]

I signed this one a few months ago. I can't find any information about the result.

 

[mina]

I signed this one a few months ago. I can't find any information about the result.

I tried looking too. But found nada! -.-

 

[mina]

The criminal justice system insists on discipline through harsher and harsher punishment (jail-time). There is no gray area in this system. It is either you committed the crime or you did not.

I met a man who committed theft throughout his 59 years of life. His real job was in construction work. This man was also illiterate. He was poor in his native country and never got the chance to attend school. And once physicaly grown enough to work a labor job (at 8 years old) he did just that. No one took the time to teach him how to read and write. That was not important. What was important was keeping shelter and putting food on the table. As he became and adult with his own family, they immigrated to the US in search of a better life. Here he could not find a job because any job, laborious or not, required literacy. He could not even fill out job applications on his own. And so began the life of lies. He would take apps home and have other people fill them out and then hand them in. He was able to get many jobs. But he was never able to keep them because eventually there came a task where he had to read/write something or other and was unable to. After these discouraging events he went off and practiced stealing. He usually stole from markets for food. But eventually it became as way of life. He stole food, electronics, tools--from stores and even homes. He was in and out of jail throughout his life. And as soon as he was let out he went back to his way of living. He did not know any other way.

The jail did a good job at locking him up. But why did they never take the time to learn his background in order to better allow him to survive outside of jail walls (putting him in literacy courses)? By the way, during his jail time he was able to learn the alphabet (all taught to him by fellow inmates). If he were literate, it would not have only allowed him to become a productive member of society, but would have also given him independence and drive.

I have met countless men with similar as well as much different stories. Some are alcoholics, others are drug addicts, some have temper problems, others (even within the categories I mentioned) are on the autism spectrum. But who cares, right? Actually understanding and helping people would take too much precious time and money (society would much rather speed those two on building more jails to accommodate the rising number of so-called criminals). Restorative justice should really play a role. Offenders need to be helped as much as their victims and surrounding communities.

I mean, what if Kayleb had been considered as an individual, not just another wolf in the flock. Such ridiculousness! This child does not need a record. But it should be recorded that the "justice" system needs to chance, pronto! -.-

So much more to say, but my thumbs are tired since I am typing on my phone!

 

[qwerty]

The criminal justice system insists on discipline through harsher and harsher punishment (jail-time). There is no gray area in this system. It is either you committed the crime or you did not.

I met a man who committed theft throughout his 59 years of life. His real job was in construction work. This man was also illiterate. He was poor in his native country and never got the chance to attend school. And once physicaly grown enough to work a labor job (at 8 years old) he did just that. No one took the time to teach him how to read and write. That was not important. What was important was keeping shelter and putting food on the table. As he became and adult with his own family, they immigrated to the US in search of a better life. Here he could not find a job because any job, laborious or not, required literacy. He could not even fill out job applications on his own. And so began the life of lies. He would take apps home and have other people fill them out and then hand them in. He was able to get many jobs. But he was never able to keep them because eventually there came a task where he had to read/write something or other and was unable to. After these discouraging events he went off and practiced stealing. He usually stole from markets for food. But eventually it became as way of life. He stole food, electronics, tools--from stores and even homes. He was in and out of jail throughout his life. And as soon as he was let out he went back to his way of living. He did not know any other way.

The jail did a good job at locking him up. But why did they never take the time to learn his background in order to better allow him to survive outside of jail walls (putting him in literacy courses)? By the way, during his jail time he was able to learn the alphabet (all taught to him by fellow inmates). If he were literate, it would not have only allowed him to become a productive member of society, but would have also given him independence and drive.

I have met countless men with similar as well as much different stories. Some are alcoholics, others are drug addicts, some have temper problems, others (even within the categories I mentioned) are on the autism spectrum. But who cares, right? Actually understanding and helping people would take too much precious time and money (society would much rather speed those two on building more jails to accommodate the rising number of so-called criminals). Restorative justice should really play a role. Offenders need to be helped as much as their victims and surrounding communities.

I mean, what if Kayleb had been considered as an individual, not just another wolf in the flock. Such ridiculousness! This child does not need a record. But it should be recorded that the "justice" system needs to chance, pronto! -.-

So much more to say, but my thumbs are tired since I am typing on my phone!

Well, I know i like you already

So true, what you have said, I couldn't agree more.

It seems to be that people are too distracted chasing profit
in the most efficient way for immediate results without thinking
through the long term implications, like nations of junkies, lying,
cheating, stealing to get what they need in the immediate now,
and like junkies they need support, forgiveness and a hand up to
recover from this self destructive soul breaking lifestyle.

"give me convenience or give me death"

We are so busy exhausting ourselves chasing a better life, a more
comfortable existence, an easier way to do everything that we are
starting to forget about those who truly need the smallest comforts.
It seems we would rather sweep health care, social services any
system that exhausts money rather than return a profit out of sight
and demonise those who are wasting that precious profit on life
saving resources, I mean how are we going to buy a shinier car if these
people keep wasting our money on surviving.

I know a women who was prosecuted for eating one grape at a grocery
store, a man prosecuted for stealing a can of baked beans, too many
people to mention whose chance at a better life was destroyed by
having a criminal record for things they needed help with, some of
the most ethical people i have ever known have been imprisoned for
drug possession. We see some celebrity suffering from addiction and
think "oh i really hope they get some help, you know it must be difficult
in their situation" etc.. but discard those who can't afford privatised care
to jail without a second thought.

People who steal amounts of money that just beggar belief get sent to
golf resorts to serve their time. Some of the most corrupt, unethical
crooks in history continue to thrive and revel in their ill deserved lifestyle
and we clap and cheer when they kiss a baby, we shouldn't let our babies
anywhere near some of these people.

What happens when a countries economy depends upon luxury goods?

hopping off another soap box lol
I am feeling decidedly idealistic recently

 

[Beverly]

Allow me to play the Devil's advocate here.

I work hard for my income, I pay taxes and, even with my deductions, that amounts to 33% of my gross income annually. I see people every time I go into any town or city that are on the dole (receiving public assistance), that assistance is my tax dollars. 90% of them are younger than I am, able bodied sound minded people who won't get a job because they actually make more on welfare or unemployment! My taxes going to feed and house kids who were only born so that the parents could buy an new car with their welfare check. Husbands collecting unemployment because their wives don't want to be left alone all day. Or even a beggar asking fro just $10.00 for food except if you give it to him, he goes straight to the liquor store and buys a bottle of cheap wine or whiskey.

Is it any wonder I take every deduction and loophole I can on my taxes or that I want to see people taught a lesson in personal responsibility? Yes they went too far with the boy in the OP but, he did need to be reprimanded and punished in some way. ASD or not, he has to learn that there are consequences for his actions, even if those action are not intentional or are born of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of a situation.

I have no problem giving people a hand up, but what I pay into taxes doesn't do that, it give them a hand out and, that does not sit well with me. I'll gladly teach anyone a skill that will get them gainful employment if they want to learn what I know but, I won't hand them money - not even my own daughter or my step kids.

I refused to bail one step son out when he got caught for possession and grand theft - I could have hired a lawyer for him and gotten him off but, I didn't, he did the prison time. He went to a shelter when he got out of prison and, has never gotten a dime form his father or me. He gets encouragement, directions to the closest public computer, temp agency etc... but no money. He wouldn't learn to stand on his own if we gave him hand outs, he'd be another one sapping my tax dollars from the few who really do need the help.

Did he learn anything in prison? Yes he learned that it's a horrible place he never wants to go back to. That's enough, he will stay out of trouble. As I told him, there are shelters, food banks and day labor, there is no reason to steal. You might not get what you want but, you'll have a bed, shower and something to eat until you get a full time job.

 

[qwerty]

Allow me to play the Devil's advocate here.

I work hard for my income, I pay taxes and, even with my deductions, that amounts to 33% of my gross income annually. I see people every time I go into any town or city that are on the dole (receiving public assistance), that assistance is my tax dollars. 90% of them are younger than I am, able bodied sound minded people who won't get a job because they actually make more on welfare or unemployment! My taxes going to feed and house kids who were only born so that the parents could buy an new car with their welfare check. Husbands collecting unemployment because their wives don't want to be left alone all day. Or even a beggar asking fro just $10.00 for food except if you give it to him, he goes straight to the liquor store and buys a bottle of cheap wine or whiskey.

Is it any wonder I take every deduction and loophole I can on my taxes or that I want to see people taught a lesson in personal responsibility? Yes they went too far with the boy in the OP but, he did need to be reprimanded and punished in some way. ASD or not, he has to learn that there are consequences for his actions, even if those action are not intentional or are born of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of a situation.

I have no problem giving people a hand up, but what I pay into taxes doesn't do that, it give them a hand out and, that does not sit well with me. I'll gladly teach anyone a skill that will get them gainful employment if they want to learn what I know but, I won't hand them money - not even my own daughter or my step kids.

I refused to bail one step son out when he got caught for possession and grand theft - I could have hired a lawyer for him and gotten him off but, I didn't, he did the prison time. He went to a shelter when he got out of prison and, has never gotten a dime form his father or me. He gets encouragement, directions to the closest public computer, temp agency etc... but no money. He wouldn't learn to stand on his own if we gave him hand outs, he'd be another one sapping my tax dollars from the few who really do need the help.

Did he learn anything in prison? Yes he learned that it's a horrible place he never wants to go back to. That's enough, he will stay out of trouble. As I told him, there are shelters, food banks and day labor, there is no reason to steal. You might not get what you want but, you'll have a bed, shower and something to eat until you get a full time job.

I have a petty much polar view to you Bev, I know you are playing devils advocate and I respect you and your opinions.
I do however strongly disagree with what you have stated.

"I work hard for my income, I pay taxes and, even with my deductions, that amounts to 33% of my gross income annually. I see people every time I go into any town or city that are on the dole (receiving public assistance), that assistance is my tax dollars. 90% of them are younger than I am, able bodied sound minded people who won't get a job because they actually make more on welfare or unemployment! My taxes going to feed and house kids who were only born so that the parents could buy an new car with their welfare check. Husbands collecting unemployment because their wives don't want to be left alone all day. Or even a beggar asking fro just $10.00 for food except if you give it to him, he goes straight to the liquor store and buys a bottle of cheap wine or whiskey."

Why do you assume they are able bodied? Some people may well be younger than you and appear well, but as anyone on the spectrum knows appearances can be very deceiving and a lot of anguish and torment can be overlooked and dismissed because others can not see it.
Because the few abuse the privilege of the system should we punish all for their crimes?
Should we think it justifiable to associate many ethical, good people who are struggling to survive with such a negative stereotype? Do we condemn all those with wealth as crooks because a few indeed are?

I do not doubt that you work very hard indeed and that is a virtuous trait. Now remember that i am playing the role of a different chaps advocate and that this is in no way a personal jibe.
I wonder how much 33% of your income would be? Can you still afford to live a comfortable satisfying lifestyle without that extra 33%? is your income after that 33% still in excess of the average wage?
Why are you not proud to think that your success has not only benefitted yourself but also potentially saved the lives of thousands?

Is it any wonder I take every deduction and loophole I can on my taxes or that I want to see people taught a lesson in personal responsibility? Yes they went too far with the boy in the OP but, he did need to be reprimanded and punished in some way. ASD or not, he has to learn that there are consequences for his actions, even if those action are not intentional or are born of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of a situation.

Yes it is a wonder to me, honestly. I know there are mutually beneficial tax exemptions which should definitely be used. I went off topic with my comment, my wee rant had more to do with a sense of injustice which this thread inspired. If a lesson in personal responsibility exceeds in suffering the worth of the lesson then does it not teach nothing but spite?

I have no problem giving people a hand up, but what I pay into taxes doesn't do that, it give them a hand out and, that does not sit well with me. I'll gladly teach anyone a skill that will get them gainful employment if they want to learn what I know but, I won't hand them money - not even my own daughter or my step kids.

If tax's were spent ethically and distributed in such a way that did indeed give people a hand up would it sit better with you? if so then is the fault not with those who desperately need the support, but with those who allocate which and how sectors of government money should be spent? Why are we not angry at the people who perpetuate a system which not only can (in some and far less than you may assume) be abused and not provide the desperately needed services to actually help people up.

I refused to bail one step son out when he got caught for possession and grand theft - I could have hired a lawyer for him and gotten him off but, I didn't, he did the prison time. He went to a shelter when he got out of prison and, has never gotten a dime form his father or me. He gets encouragement, directions to the closest public computer, temp agency etc... but no money. He wouldn't learn to stand on his own if we gave him hand outs, he'd be another one sapping my tax dollars from the few who really do need the help.

I respect this approach greatly and admire you for this. Many people however are not being taught a lesson by utilising food banks and such services, they are simply using them to live sometimes for their entire life.

Did he learn anything in prison? Yes he learned that it's a horrible place he never wants to go back to. That's enough, he will stay out of trouble. As I told him, there are shelters, food banks and day labor, there is no reason to steal. You might not get what you want but, you'll have a bed, shower and something to eat until you get a full time job.

Many many people are placed in this horrible place because they were addicted to something and are otherwise very good people, as your son could attest i am sure he wouldn't wish this environment on anyone.

Again I say this with respect. I like you Bev

 

[Beverly]

Yes, it is the fault of those who allocate the support. They do not screen carefully enough nor, follow up to be sure the reason for the support has not been resolved.

Case in point my own step daughter who would still be getting SSI had i not turned her in for fraud. Three years ago she fell in her kitchen and injured her tail bone. She was unable to walk for two days, then could not feel much in her legs for a few months. Of course that meant she couldn't drive, or go to work and, would need an in home aid. That was fine with me until six months later when she was driving herself to babysitting and house cleaning jobs that paid cash under the table and still collecting full disability and, had her aide coming to clean her home, cook and such three times a week. Oh she was plenty disabled when the aide was there but not once the aide was gone.

I've seen too much of that, and of others getting fired just to get on unemployment, then not making any effort to find a job.

 

[qwerty]

Yes, it is the fault of those who allocate the support. They do not screen carefully enough nor, follow up to be sure the reason for the support has not been resolved.

Case in point my own step daughter who would still be getting SSI had i not turned her in for fraud. Three years ago she fell in her kitchen and injured her tail bone. She was unable to walk for two days, then could not feel much in her legs for a few months. Of course that meant she couldn't drive, or go to work and, would need an in home aid. That was fine with me until six months later when she was driving herself to babysitting and house cleaning jobs that paid cash under the table and still collecting full disability and, had her aide coming to clean her home, cook and such three times a week. Oh she was plenty disabled when the aide was there but not once the aide was gone.

I've seen too much of that, and of others getting fired just to get on unemployment, then not making any effort to find a job.

Wooow I want to make sure that what i have said is understood within the context in which i had intended, so for the sake of clarity i feel i must say.

I had not implied that the allocation of state funding was the cause of, What you seem to perceive as a great mass of people waiting to exploit any assistance and spend the ill gotten money on crack and alcohol.

I was implying that i believe it is the responsibility of any good government to care and provide resources for those who are struggling to survive, the fact that there is a homelessness problem, that people are eating maggoty bread and thinking that a good day because they wont be hungry that night reveals that the resources to provide a bottom up economy are simply not there. If the people throwing cake to the mob provided employment opportunities and a feasible and sustainable micro economy to allow those with nothing to thrive, else i think they are far more vulgar and crooked than any alcoholic striving to dull the pain of their poverty by abusing a system which doesn't give a **** about them.

Again i say this with respect
and to clarify my stance.

 

[mina]

Hi Beverly. I too respect your opinion. Nonetheless, I think you missed the point of the subject matter. I don't necessarily think it had anything to do with money (per say), nor did I want to completely disregard the good intentions and positive outcome being incarcerated might bring to a few number (especially the more heinous cases perhaps), and much less did I want to excuse the actions of people. People make decisions and heck yes, I agree, they should also deal with the consequences (but having a sole consequence for any crime isn't working). Google Restorative Justice...that's a much better approach (in many cases). The point was (at least mine) the fast-paced, intolerant, apathetic society we live in and how oftentimes people are misunderstood and treated like a whole instead of individuals. Not all people in jail are bad. They are people who made bad decisions at some point in their lives and actually got caught. Imagine if every single person who stole a pack of gum or a grape was incarcerated (I'm not excusing these "crimes", simply the first two minor examples I could think of right now)? For "crimes" like those, you and I would probably be living next to a newly built detention center (probably partly paid with both our hard earned money) because there would be a huge overflow of "criminals" (from strangers, acquaintances, friends, and even family). Instead, why can't society take a turn in another direction, where restoration takes place, not mere spanking and punishment. I mean, tell me a credible book where a respectable professional tells parents to spank their children every single time they are out of turn, regardless of their offense. You probably (or at least I am hoping) won't find such book. This is because parenting is nurturing body, mind, and soul. Yes, I get that people in jail are not kids (well, some are), but grown adults. Nonetheless, the sometimes mindless and impulsive things they do put them in a state of mind that is still in a developing stage (for different reasons probably...socio-economic reasons etc). So, unless society wants to continue a cycle of jailing "bad" people then the same "bad" people will come back out (sometimes coming out even worse people because of they isolation from the real world they face for weeks, months, years at a time). People like Kayleb will get a record (perhaps even some detention time) and will come back out being able to pusue less (less job opportunities and stability). And for what, throwing a chair? Trying to defend himself from an adult during a messed up day where his mind was just not working well? What if instead of jail time, they had counselors, teachers, psychologists...support? Maybe that would make a healthier individual, don't you think? Because the people who are incarcerated today can be our neighbors tomorrow, and I sure as heck don't want to live next to ignorance, someone who was kept away from real life entering my neighborhood unaware of what to do with him/herself. Idle minds is where poor decisions and actions start. I think people are worthy of a second chance in most cases.

 

[mina]

Well, I know i like you already

So true, what you have said, I couldn't agree more.

It seems to be that people are too distracted chasing profit
in the most efficient way for immediate results without thinking
through the long term implications, like nations of junkies, lying,
cheating, stealing to get what they need in the immediate now,
and like junkies they need support, forgiveness and a hand up to
recover from this self destructive soul breaking lifestyle.

"give me convenience or give me death"

We are so busy exhausting ourselves chasing a better life, a more
comfortable existence, an easier way to do everything that we are
starting to forget about those who truly need the smallest comforts.
It seems we would rather sweep health care, social services any
system that exhausts money rather than return a profit out of sight
and demonise those who are wasting that precious profit on life
saving resources, I mean how are we going to buy a shinier car if these
people keep wasting our money on surviving.

I know a women who was prosecuted for eating one grape at a grocery
store, a man prosecuted for stealing a can of baked beans, too many
people to mention whose chance at a better life was destroyed by
having a criminal record for things they needed help with, some of
the most ethical people i have ever known have been imprisoned for
drug possession. We see some celebrity suffering from addiction and
think "oh i really hope they get some help, you know it must be difficult
in their situation" etc.. but discard those who can't afford privatised care
to jail without a second thought.

People who steal amounts of money that just beggar belief get sent to
golf resorts to serve their time. Some of the most corrupt, unethical
crooks in history continue to thrive and revel in their ill deserved lifestyle
and we clap and cheer when they kiss a baby, we shouldn't let our babies
anywhere near some of these people.

What happens when a countries economy depends upon luxury goods?

hopping off another soap box [emoji14] lol
I am feeling decidedly idealistic recently

You know, one of my best students (an inmate) was a happily engaged and successful (11 year) electrical engineer living in a very nice part of town. His fiance was a working artist. One day he got great news! He had gotten a promotion! He worked hard for that! He was thrilled. He and his coworkers went out to a bar a few blocks from his house. They had a few drinks. He never really drank, but he thought, "What the hell! Today my hard work paid off!" Plus he only had to drive a few blocks, right? So after a fun night that ended around 10pm, he hopped in his car. He thought he was okay to drive those few blocks. Unfortunately, he wasn't. He ran over a person and left him in a critical state. The person survived but did suffer substantial injuries. My student is now serving an 18 year sentence in a minimum security jail because he is a "low-threat." He will be able to get out when he is almost 50. No one will want to hire a 50-year old electrical engineer with a record. Now, I am not excusing his action. He made a terrible one that resulted in an outcome that I can only see in nightmares. Nonetheless, why does society not consider everything else this person had contributed yo society? He will spend his 30s and 40s secluded from a society that once truly appreciated him. His remorse is clear. What I don't understand is what good it will do to incarcerate this person for thus amount of time. I can see where serving some time might teach him a thing or 2. But 18 years? He was never able to reach the family he hurt either. He wanted to speak to them, but once he was incarcerated, that was it. You did what you did, now live with it and the time you get to serve will remind you of the one "fine" day for the next 18 years.

Anywho, point being --our criminal justice system sucks balls sometimes! LOL