Advice required on female autistic traits

[don]

I wonder if someone can help me out here and help identify these traits as possibly being seen in female high functioning autism as I have seen many of these in combination among 3 separate women who are definitely not neurotypical and I personally believe are on the autistic spectrum.

• Lack of natural empathy and cannot understand anyone else’s perspective. If the experience has not impacted them directly, then it cannot be comprehended. Even when that experience has impacted them as well as that situation, the belief is that it was ‘different’ for them, even when fundamentally it was not. This is mainly on abstract level of putting themselves of someone else say facing an unfair social situation, but on a visceral level e.g. seeing someone physically hurt they are perfectly capable of responding compassionately.
• Major leaps from limited data to sometimes quite wild conclusions.
• Massive confirmation bias. Once a prejudice or assumption is adopted it is virtually impossible to dislodge, even when provided with an accurate telling of events and situations. The confirmation bias interferes strongly with the recall of events, and in their minds the past is reshaped so they are a victim of injustice, even when it is manifestly false and on occasion they may actually be the one perpetrating the injustice. This is not a deliberate lie, but because the incorrect narrative reinforces the bias, it becomes true in their mind. Almost always emotion takes precedence over logic which is noticeably absent (I find this particularly puzzling as Simon Baron Cohen described HFA as the ‘extreme male brain’ with an obsessive interest in understanding systems, which surely does require the use of a well-developed sense of logic).
• Often not listening to conversations and zoning out, with sometimes asking for information that might be have been provided previously several times.
• A dominance of the Id in terms of psychology, with a seeming belief that obligations and responsibilities that other people take for granted is beneath them and having a spoiled princess type outlook (in my own experience two of the three did not have an upbringing at all that would have encouraged that, so environment can’t be the reason).
• Childish foot stamping aversion to perception of authority being imposed upon them – particularly when it is to push for compliance with a chore considered tiresome
• High level of intolerance for people unless on their terms, particularly on those who are relatives through marriage rather than blood (entirely different attitude for the latter).

I am aware that some of these traits apply to male ASD as well. Please note that I am aware that ASD people are not uniform, I am asking if these types of traits are a familiar combination in female ASD person, not if all female ASD people are like this. She has never been diagnosed, and to the lay person would not be an obvious candidate for ASD being glamorous, fashion conscious, bubbly and no interest in nerd whims. However, in so many other ways she is so far from being neurotypical. I am on the spectrum, and I believe the fact that we are both are is one of the very few things we have in common and how such different people got together in the first place. Also, it probably sounds very negative. That does not preclude any of these individuals having positive traits too, but any disorder or disability obviously has a focus on negative traits and outcomes otherwise it would not be a disorder or disability.

 

[Shamar]

I wonder if someone can help me out here and help identify these traits as possibly being seen in female high functioning autism as I have seen many of these in combination among 3 separate women who are definitely not neurotypical and I personally believe are on the autistic spectrum.

• Lack of natural empathy and cannot understand anyone else’s perspective. If the experience has not impacted them directly, then it cannot be comprehended. Even when that experience has impacted them as well as that situation, the belief is that it was ‘different’ for them, even when fundamentally it was not. This is mainly on abstract level of putting themselves of someone else say facing an unfair social situation, but on a visceral level e.g. seeing someone physically hurt they are perfectly capable of responding compassionately.
• Major leaps from limited data to sometimes quite wild conclusions.
• Massive confirmation bias. Once a prejudice or assumption is adopted it is virtually impossible to dislodge, even when provided with an accurate telling of events and situations. The confirmation bias interferes strongly with the recall of events, and in their minds the past is reshaped so they are a victim of injustice, even when it is manifestly false and on occasion they may actually be the one perpetrating the injustice. This is not a deliberate lie, but because the incorrect narrative reinforces the bias, it becomes true in their mind. Almost always emotion takes precedence over logic which is noticeably absent (I find this particularly puzzling as Simon Baron Cohen described HFA as the ‘extreme male brain’ with an obsessive interest in understanding systems, which surely does require the use of a well-developed sense of logic).
• Often not listening to conversations and zoning out, with sometimes asking for information that might be have been provided previously several times.
• A dominance of the Id in terms of psychology, with a seeming belief that obligations and responsibilities that other people take for granted is beneath them and having a spoiled princess type outlook (in my own experience two of the three did not have an upbringing at all that would have encouraged that, so environment can’t be the reason).
• Childish foot stamping aversion to perception of authority being imposed upon them – particularly when it is to push for compliance with a chore considered tiresome
• High level of intolerance for people unless on their terms, particularly on those who are relatives through marriage rather than blood (entirely different attitude for the latter).

I am aware that some of these traits apply to male ASD as well. Please note that I am aware that ASD people are not uniform, I am asking if these types of traits are a familiar combination in female ASD person, not if all female ASD people are like this. She has never been diagnosed, and to the lay person would not be an obvious candidate for ASD being glamorous, fashion conscious, bubbly and no interest in nerd whims. However, in so many other ways she is so far from being neurotypical. I am on the spectrum, and I believe the fact that we are both are is one of the very few things we have in common and how such different people got together in the first place. Also, it probably sounds very negative. That does not preclude any of these individuals having positive traits too, but any disorder or disability obviously has a focus on negative traits and outcomes otherwise it would not be a disorder or disability.

Seems to me more like narcissism syndrome. Sounds a lot like my wife. Reality is what she determines it to be. Anything supporting that is, by definition, true; anything opposing it is, by definition, false. All conversations must devolve into her life growing up, or her homeland, without which there would not be any human history. It is hard to prevent this because she does 90% of the talking. No matter what problems or traumas you have experienced, she has had worse (according to her). Everything has to be on her schedule, no matter what the inconvenience to others. Whatever she wants done now had better be done NOW, irrespective of other priorities, including hers. Anything worth noticing is worth finding fault. Anything not in the category of problem is, by definition, a disaster. She is the absolute expert on all things. She does not need to change, since she is already perfect; everybody else in the world needs to change to meet her expectations.

Look up narcissism in the latest DSM and check the characteristics.

 

[tree]

Sounds more narcissistic, to me.
Not ASD in particular.

11 Signs You’re Dating a Narcissist — and How to Deal with Them

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - HelpGuide.org

Narcissism - Wikipedia

 

[Kalinychta]

I think most of the country is like that (or becoming like it). She just sounds like a jerk.

Seems like a lot of people are accused of being autistic when they behave badly. It shows how negatively the world regards autism and autistic people. “He’s an inflexible, self-centered jerk...he must be autistic.”

 

[Rectify]

Other posters mentioned that they could just be jerks or have narcissistic traits. I just wanted to say that, as you yourself know austistic people can vary a lot. Being a jerk or even being a narcissist is not something that NTs have to themselves. Those options are sadly available to autistics too.

Having said that, we only have what you've written to go on. Make sure that you, yourself, are making sensible judgements about this/these women. Look at your own behaviour too. I say this because some of the things you wrote reminded me of two people I know/have known who said some similar things about me - and it wasn't always one-sided problem, nor was it always my problem.

As an example (not something that's been said to me, but an example of how as a reader I can't 'know' what is really happening with you and these people):

Childish foot stamping aversion to perception of authority being imposed upon them – particularly when it is to push for compliance with a chore considered tiresome

Is it her perception of authority or are you actually trying to impose your authority on her/them and they are simply reacting to that? It would be frustrating and could lead to "childish foot stamping" as you say, that might be simply someone at the end of their tether.

"Pushing for compliance with a chore"...it's really hard for me to know whether this is okay or not just based on the above post. I understand that some people don't pull their weight and that's not fair on the other person. But sometimes it's the other person that's unfairly setting the rules and then trying to enforce it where they don't really have a right.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

My first thought was narcissism too, or borderline personality disorder. None of these suggests autism to me.

 

[Aspychata]

l lived with a narsisstic male. Grandiose definitely comes out. l was never allowed to be happy. l was not allowed to work. I was constanly his supply. Do you feel this female allows you to be happy, give you compliments?

 

[Tom]

Tbh, none of those strike me as ASD traits female or male. I think you have more work to do if you wish to understand and be able to recognize autism.

 

[Aspychata]

I wonder if someone can help me out here and help identify these traits as possibly being seen in female high functioning autism as I have seen many of these in combination among 3 separate women who are definitely not neurotypical and I personally believe are on the autistic spectrum.

• Lack of natural empathy and cannot understand anyone else’s perspective. If the experience has not impacted them directly, then it cannot be comprehended. Even when that experience has impacted them as well as that situation, the belief is that it was ‘different’ for them, even when fundamentally it was not. This is mainly on abstract level of putting themselves of someone else say facing an unfair social situation, but on a visceral level e.g. seeing someone physically hurt they are perfectly capable of responding compassionately.
• Major leaps from limited data to sometimes quite wild conclusions.
• Massive confirmation bias. Once a prejudice or assumption is adopted it is virtually impossible to dislodge, even when provided with an accurate telling of events and situations. The confirmation bias interferes strongly with the recall of events, and in their minds the past is reshaped so they are a victim of injustice, even when it is manifestly false and on occasion they may actually be the one perpetrating the injustice. This is not a deliberate lie, but because the incorrect narrative reinforces the bias, it becomes true in their mind. Almost always emotion takes precedence over logic which is noticeably absent (I find this particularly puzzling as Simon Baron Cohen described HFA as the ‘extreme male brain’ with an obsessive interest in understanding systems, which surely does require the use of a well-developed sense of logic).
• Often not listening to conversations and zoning out, with sometimes asking for information that might be have been provided previously several times.
• A dominance of the Id in terms of psychology, with a seeming belief that obligations and responsibilities that other people take for granted is beneath them and having a spoiled princess type outlook (in my own experience two of the three did not have an upbringing at all that would have encouraged that, so environment can’t be the reason).
• Childish foot stamping aversion to perception of authority being imposed upon them – particularly when it is to push for compliance with a chore considered tiresome
• High level of intolerance for people unless on their terms, particularly on those who are relatives through marriage rather than blood (entirely different attitude for the latter).

I am aware that some of these traits apply to male ASD as well. Please note that I am aware that ASD people are not uniform, I am asking if these types of traits are a familiar combination in female ASD person, not if all female ASD people are like this. She has never been diagnosed, and to the lay person would not be an obvious candidate for ASD being glamorous, fashion conscious, bubbly and no interest in nerd whims. However, in so many other ways she is so far from being neurotypical. I am on the spectrum, and I believe the fact that we are both are is one of the very few things we have in common and how such different people got together in the first place. Also, it probably sounds very negative. That does not preclude any of these individuals having positive traits too, but any disorder or disability obviously has a focus on negative traits and outcomes otherwise it would not be a disorder or disability.

So l am a little confused? Do you think this person is not worth your time and why are you here discussing them? Are you better because you are just on the spectrum? And you have no inital biases or special interests yourself?

 

[Aspychata]

@don You can lead a horse to water,but you can't force it to drink the magic koolaid. Maybe the horse knows better.

 

[Suzanne]

Sounds more like my husband than me and he is the neurotypical one out of us too.

By the way: sympathy is what we find hard to achieve, which is actually what nt's are very good at.

I am very good with empathy and in fact, horribly good with misplaced empathy.

 

[don]

Thanks for your response. I think your wife sounds an extreme case. There are definitely some things in common, but I think (or at least I hope) that if she was entirely like that all this time, the relationship would have ended some years ago. Has your wife seen a psychiatrist, or is narcissism from your own observations? A few have suggested that, and after reading the main points, I dunno I think it is more half and half. I kind of think her lack of self awareness, and personality where the id is ascendant, makes her selfish in a spoiled child kind of way, rather than a braggadocios Trump in heels. I appreciate, that obviously I have given an incomplete picture. She basically shuts out anything she does not want to do and unfortunately when that it is to move away from being unreasonable or hurtful to people in my family who like her company and have only shown her kindness, that is why the relationship has been difficult. I will read more on narcissism though as its definitely worth bearing in mind.

Seems to me more like narcissism syndrome. Sounds a lot like my wife. Reality is what she determines it to be. Anything supporting that is, by definition, true; anything opposing it is, by definition, false. All conversations must devolve into her life growing up, or her homeland, without which there would not be any human history. It is hard to prevent this because she does 90% of the talking. No matter what problems or traumas you have experienced, she has had worse (according to her). Everything has to be on her schedule, no matter what the inconvenience to others. Whatever she wants done now had better be done NOW, irrespective of other priorities, including hers. Anything worth noticing is worth finding fault. Anything not in the category of problem is, by definition, a disaster. She is the absolute expert on all things. She does not need to change, since she is already perfect; everybody else in the world needs to change to meet her expectations.

Look up narcissism in the latest DSM and check the characteristics.

 

[don]

You make a lot of good points.

Although I would not be as foolish as to say I was 100% objective, I believe I am more so than most people. For various reasons I have been very self analytical going back decades, and I am always envious of people who have no regrets as I actually regret most of the decisions I have made. Like many ASD people self awareness is not intuitive to me, but I spend a lot of time processing it through my brain's CPU rather than by doing it instinctictively like an NT does. Im also a huge fan of scientific method which requires objectivity in order to achieve any result worthwhile. People have said to me that I'm very honest; but actually I don't think I am particularly as that implies openness, I just rarely lie and am very self critical. I know I am difficult to many people - relations in the past have floundered because of my obsessive thinking, constant focus on bad events in the past / childhood, depression / negativity, anxiety, poor method of dealing with relationship problems - become even more introverted and silent, as well as the mind blindness (obviously) when needing to read people. Interestingly some of these attributes have not been an issue with her much, when they were utterly crippling to other women. Also, I always thought that her being on the spectrum is the reason she did not get creeped out by my lack of social norms in body language and conversation; as she would just have not noticed.


The issue is that whenever we have been close to splitting is because her behaviour makes me alarmed and anxious and makes me want us to part; not the other way around (so far, but that could change). Also, when we attended counselling although obviously the counsellor could not take sides, I think she seemed to agree that my perception of the relationship was the more correct one. In fact my partner (lets call her Angie) has refused to return to counselling on this basis, as she thinks they will encourage her to be obliged to accept things she does not want.

Regarding chores, there is no doubt I do more than she does. She cleans the kitchen and bathroom, while I do the rest of the house. We agreed at the start that maintenance, gardening etc. should be shared equally, but when I mention that these things are needed and can she help me out she gets angry in a resentful kid being told to tidy her room kind of way. If her friends comes to town, she can disappear from Friday to Sunday and not do anything at all. She also mentions hiring people to clean (for her parts of the chores). I call her Princess Angie for the reason that she thinks manual labour is beneath her. The weird thing is that she is the middle of three siblings and grew up in a very working class household so money was tight and they did not have much; and so there is no reason at all to think she was spoiled (her siblings are not like her either). She likes to point out things that should be done, and I ask if she is volunteering to which she says no, and I ask her if she is volunteering me, to which she laughs as the answer is obviously yes. TBH though I could deal with the selfishness regarding physical work if she could show tolerance for my family. It is her attitude to them which is the cause of 90% of our issues.

She does definitely have quite a few ASD traits and 75% of them are also found in a relative of mine who was diagnosed (although in a softer and less intolerant form) e,g, Childlike in terms of temper and analysis; bizarrely large chunks of common knowledge missing, lack of navigational-spatial ability, bizarre conclusions from non supporting evidence (yes I know many ASD people are the opposite, but that is how this spectrum is), often naieve and exploitable, inability to see from anothers point of view etc.

Other posters mentioned that they could just be jerks or have narcissistic traits. I just wanted to say that, as you yourself know austistic people can vary a lot. Being a jerk or even being a narcissist is not something that NTs have to themselves. Those options are sadly available to autistics too.

Having said that, we only have what you've written to go on. Make sure that you, yourself, are making sensible judgements about this/these women. Look at your own behaviour too. I say this because some of the things you wrote reminded me of two people I know/have known who said some similar things about me - and it wasn't always one-sided problem, nor was it always my problem.

As an example (not something that's been said to me, but an example of how as a reader I can't 'know' what is really happening with you and these people):

Is it her perception of authority or are you actually trying to impose your authority on her/them and they are simply reacting to that? It would be frustrating and could lead to "childish foot stamping" as you say, that might be simply someone at the end of their tether.

"Pushing for compliance with a chore"...it's really hard for me to know whether this is okay or not just based on the above post. I understand that some people don't pull their weight and that's not fair on the other person. But sometimes it's the other person that's unfairly setting the rules and then trying to enforce it where they don't really have a right.

 

[don]

On the first point definitely NO. The second point is not really, but to be fair I do this probably less than she does.

l lived with a narsisstic male. Grandiose definitely comes out. l was never allowed to be happy. l was not allowed to work. I was constanly his supply. Do you feel this female allows you to be happy, give you compliments?

 

[Rectify]

I appreciate your thorough thought and response to my post. It sounds like you are doing your best to look at the situation from an outsiders point of view, something I think is often helpful. Especially where emotions are high, such as in an important relationship like this.

TBH though I could deal with the selfishness regarding physical work if she could show tolerance for my family. It is her attitude to them which is the cause of 90% of our issues.

This is hard. My two most important relationships have been like that, with my partners always trying to point out how difficult a particular person in my family is. Trying to drive a wedge in, essentially.

Frankly, they were right (the person is outrageous and sometimes very difficult - but the person was not going after my partners or anything like that).

BUT both of these partners were not only going about it the wrong way but doing it for the wrong reasons. Placing me in between something they were creating and stirring up and then wanting me to 'choose' them (btw I didn't realise this at the time, only much later..maybe because of my autism). Instead, they should have been supporting me the way I supported them with their own families.

Is that what is happening with you and your partner? Or is it more that she doesn't got to events etc with you? If its the first then I would be very concerned for you. If the second, that may simply be something you have to either accept as how the relationship is (if she won't change) OR leave the relationship. But maybe it's another situation altogether.

With the chores I was going to say, maybe you have different needs and different ideas of what clean is and what needs to be done (and when)...but then you said this....

She likes to point out things that should be done, and I ask if she is volunteering to which she says no, and I ask her if she is volunteering me, to which she laughs as the answer is obviously yes.

Hmm. It does sound like she wants things done but, just as you said, doesn't want to be the one to do it.

If so, and if you've tried talking to her and she won't change then again the decision falls on you. Is that something you can live with? Or not?

 

[Rectify]

Do you feel this female allows you to be happy...?

That's a tricky on Aspychata because there are two ways to look at it. For example you might be unable to be happy because you're with someone with whom you are simply not suited. Maybe they constantly have the TV on and you can't stand the noise. In that case, your partner is not actually disallowing your happiness. They are simply living their lives and it's you, and your differences, that is stopping your happiness.

But I will agree there are some people who attack and do outrageous things to others and I absolutely agree that if you are suffering abuse and nastiness then I would say that person is not allowing their partner to be happy. Usually, with those people, that is how they are. I no longer give any hopes for those people to change because my experience is they rarely do. I made it a numbers game - chances are...so,....I just walk away or do other things to protect myself.

There is always going to be a grey area of course, different people will draw the line in different positions on what is acceptable and what isn't.

Re. narcissists when they haven't learned (or don't care to) not to treat others badly that is an awful, awful mix. A relationship with a person like that can be full of horror and destroy your trust.

 

[Wolfnox]

and I am always envious of people who have no regrets as I actually regret most of the decisions I have made.

I think everyone lives with regrets. Those people who look like they have none are probably used to it or moved on. Ever choice i made was based on what i knew at the time. Are their regrets? Sure. But we dont learn by never making mistakes. You own up that you screwed up and try not to do it again. Sometimes you repeat that mistake for years before overcoming it. Do you regret it? Sure. But thats how long you needed to figure it out. Its very, very, hard to forgive yourself. But you need to so you can take that experience and be a better you.

 

[SDRSpark]

Lack of natural empathy and cannot understand anyone else’s perspective. If the experience has not impacted them directly, then it cannot be comprehended. Even when that experience has impacted them as well as that situation, the belief is that it was ‘different’ for them, even when fundamentally it was not. This is mainly on abstract level of putting themselves of someone else say facing an unfair social situation, but on a visceral level e.g. seeing someone physically hurt they are perfectly capable of responding compassionately.

This sounds like me - I care a lot, but I don't naturally "get" other people. By now though, I'm 31 years old and I have a huge 'bank' of experiences to draw from, so for the most part, I can effectively empathize, though it didn't come naturally, and seeing people upset makes me uncomfortable for reasons other than empathy much of the time. ("They're crying and it's making me feel awkward".)

I'm pretty sure I'm more than capable of jumping to conclusions too, lol. I can't really honestly say I don't (as much as I might like to!)

The rest of it...not really. The rest doesn't sound like autism to me at all.

I'm self-diagnosed, and far from an expert, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[don]

Thanks for the condescension Professor Freud. I am not completely snatching things out the air though. I am on the spectrum (although obviously not female), as is my mother and a past girlfriend of three years. I have met and interacted with a great deal of autistic people and professionals who work in autism (although with the latter it was usually about myself). Just about all her traits I have seen in the other two females I have mentioned, and that is why they seemed familiar although certain attributes are more dominant such as intolerance.

Tbh, none of those strike me as ASD traits female or male. I think you have more work to do if you wish to understand and be able to recognize autism.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the condescension Professor Freud. I am not completely snatching things out the air though. I am on the spectrum (although obviously not female), as is my mother and a past girlfriend of three years. I have met and interacted with a great deal of autistic people and professionals who work in autism (although with the latter it was usually about myself). Just about all her traits I have seen in the other two females I have mentioned, and that is why they seemed familiar although certain attributes are more dominant such as intolerance.

Maybe you are just unlucky.