Who benefits from our economic troubles?

At this point in time, the people that benefit from it are

a. the really, rich
b. the lower class who need another reason to start a revolution

You already wrote about a. so no need to go onto that any more. For one, I believe that people are settling for too much and taking that for granted. A lot of people think they can't start a protest (or in extremly violent situations, a full-on riot). I wouldn't condone actions, however, this is what happens at some point. I think in Europe for example a lot of people don't want to give up on their mortgage and all, thus they take it. But at some point, even the things one is holding on to, are more of a burden than actually "good". If I have to pay off a mortgage and don't have money to eat (and support my familiy) I'd be better of selling my house for instance. And what if you're already renting? The frame of what you have is a bit smaller... there is a smaller buffer on luxury one can "give up". In the long run, it has nothing to do with "well, settle for a bit less" and it becomes "settle for nothing". But a lot of people are really that "laid back" and are more of a "oh well, it's not that bad I guess", but to be honest, I think people are just fooling themselves.

If we're talking "comfort" of growing older, I don't know if I rather grow old being uncomfy, or grow old being uncomfy but knowing I at least made my voice heard and actually try to change. Apparently though, in this day and age voicing yourself isn't expressed solely by voting. For one, it's with the Occupy movement. Just imagine if people would do this worldwide, at the same time and for instance all just did it during working hours. That would be a major setback, and more of a problem than just being a weekend protester. Of course, people worry that they get fired, they have a familiy to support, but to be honest, that's part of the "****" you've gotten yourself into. If I want to riot (I stress IF) I might get arrested, but at least I don't have a kid or a wife that has to deal with my situation. And yes, you can say "well, people who have been maried for x years, didn't know it went this bad"... no they didn't, but people who are convinced that marriage and kids is a good plan nowadays, and hide behind the facade of; hey I'm married/have a kid, they can't throw me out and put me on the street. (or even try the, "they can't fire me, my boss is a reasonable human being")

Perhaps I'm quite biased in that I don't really care for living with someone, nor having kids (and other personal obligations). Perhaps I've watched way too many sci-fi flicks which deal with economic collapse, riots, uproar and all. Perhaps i even listened to way too much Rage against the machine songs... but I don't believe it's all based on purely fiction... it might become a reality someday. And it kinda bothers me that people by that moment are like "oh... I didn't see that coming". No of course you haven't, mainstream media apparently keeps your attention on other matters that are more "important".

A final note before someone tries to beat me to the punch with "well, you don't actively protest (and get arrested) and you take things for granted". No I don't protest, and here's why... I still believe in a civilized and orderly manner, albeit less and less each day. If I weren't to take stuff for granted, to where it is slowly going, then why should I for instance, adhere to law? That kinda applies for a lot people I think. As long as people settle for social services to be "correct". People won't argue that life has it's ups and downs. Yet if I'm treated with the... well "the inhumanity of greed", why should it stop me from obtaining "wealth" (or even means to survive), by means that are humane? I can't see everyone objecting against unreasonable means, because we apparently have some prime examples.

A thing that bothers me with a lot of protests though is if you ask people who are protesting, there usually isn't anyone out there to make a valid point. Or even a solution. I don't think that they ever interviewed someone at a protest who had something to bring to the table, which in response got attention by media or politicians who actually thought "hey... that's a good point, we have overlooked this, we should look into this". It makes me wonder if it's actually just stupid people protesting, or if the media is framing protesters as "stupid people". I think it's the latter, though I don't have any solid evidence on that.

I also keep wondering how many reasons people need to wake up.

Somehow, I feel that the destiny for the poor is that some ideas of the poor might be eventually picked up by some rich people, who are also not content to see a reduction of their wealth through destruction. Then there will be a revolt and then... Boom.

There will be no communism. However, I expect the world in future to have more socialism, more social welfare for the poor, especially towards the special needs community, with higher taxes. With more economic transfers, the poor will have so much spending power, and when combined, they can do even more than the highly insecure rich people, who had already stopped spending.

The poor will eventually decide our fate as much as the rich, especially the poor who are stuck in the rut.

One question I often ask is, however, will the poor remain poor even after revolution?

Only in one country did the poor become better as a whole, seemingly: the Communist world from 1949 to 1979, with their communist system. Alas, that was short-lived.

I've never really understood macroeconomics but as we discussed in the chat bar, I'm a middle class citizen of rural Nebraska. So my honest and non-biased opinion is that in many ways the middle class of America is destined to stay middle class or unfortunatly degress below the poverty line. But it's obvious that there are ways that the middle class hurts ourselves financially. In the year 1900 credit and loans we're rarely used in America (I dont know about credit internationally) but now it's unusual for a middle class family to NOT have a car payment, house payment, loan payment etc. In some cases it's nearly impossible to avoid borrowing money. But we utilize loans much more often then we should, or more then we need to. I despise credit cards. Never used one and hopefully never will. I believe that in most cases if I dont physically have the money for an object then I dont deserve to purchase the object.

The wealthy stay wealthy because they can avoid this cycle. This is creating a larger and larger gap between the two financial classes.

I know that I dont fully grasp large scale economics and financial concepts, but whether this problem is acknowledged or not, Im fully aware that this IS a factor in the problem.

We are trapped by debt, because most of us won't understand credit well enough - and blissfully ignorant of it.

Communism only works if there is no one actually wanting more than the other. If someone wants more, it's considered greed, and greed does not work for communism.

Dolby; if you don't like creditcards and try to not use one, I guess you haven't thought about starting a company yourself. Because that's what one of the reasons is, why people might ask for a loan. If I were to go by that definition of never had a loan, I wouldn't have obtained the hands-on knowledge I already have. But I'm one speaking from the experience that college apparently does not work for me. Just give me a goal (or a rough idea of an end product) and I'll see how I work it... (if it's something I like to do).

Geordie; most people are ignorant of it. I just was in Germany, and there was a x-mas market (which is open every day, for the next month). Crisis my ass... people are willing to spend 5 times the amount on just random novelties, because it's "that time of the year".

i manage my finances mostly by "when it's gone, it's gone". No I do not have a problem at the end of my month, i can calculate that 'risk"... so I can groceries. But I get along better with "less". I don't have the urge to want anything... and fooling myself by means of "well, it's in a different account, for saving", doesn't fly with me. I'd probably look for a way around it to obtain that cash either way. I can't fool myself in regards to what money I have and can obtain.

But actually, think about this... and Dolby did point it out. Carloans, house payments and all... it's one of the things, most people cannot do without. Yes, I can buy a 2nd hand car, and I could live rented. But actually, in the long run, buying a house is cheaper than renting one for most part, in Holland. The mortgage payment on the house I live in (with my parents), is just as much as renting one on a monthly basis, and at the end of the year there's taxreturns because of the mortgage. But either way... mortgage or rented, you're still having the obligation to pay someone. Worse even... if you can pay it upfront at once, the government will question to where you obtained that money. And usually it's some kind of tax fraud.

As for the entire macroeconomics, I don't worry about it that much actually, because whatever changes, it's not MY money. And I don't see anyone else paying MY bills. Yes, that might be narrowminded, but seriously, I think people who spend an ungodly amount of hours on this in college and work are much better informed about this than I am. Or so I expect...

There will always be greed, it's a sin but it's so part of human nature.

I think if people cannot even afford necessities like shelter or car loans/transport costs at a sustainable rate, then it is really bad for all the people in the long run (maybe very true in bigger cities which are developing but not true in other places) - so how can we pull through the economic trouble?

What else can we do, other than being more aware of the situation that we are in?